The Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Book of Revelation

[Murse32]

First of all great. I didn't know that the Bridegroom take his bride back to his fathers and stays for seven days. Thanks.

So your telling me that in Matthew 24:29 where it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" is not proof enough that the catching away will not happen until after a period of tribulation?

Yeah, basically that's what I'm saying. If Matthew just said what you did, than it might make more sense, but if you take it as a whole and think of the elect to be the original that God chose, than your post-trib doctrine doesn't make sense anymore. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But I do know that Revelation and Daniel are set up around the focal point being Israel. I do know that God seals 144,000, for what reason? If the church is here, why is He sealing them? Is the seal the Holy Spirit...why is there only 144,000? Why aren't they being saved like us? Where is the church? Why aren't we fighting? If the church is here, shouldn't we point out the abomination of desolation? wouldn't that convert many? So many questions...so little answers.

I agree that we are not to know the day or the hour but I got a better event to look for then the battle of Armaggedon. It is a new Jewish temple built on the temple mount. In 2 Thess it say that the antichrist will sit in the temple of God showing himself as if he was God. Which means that he will be sitting in the holy of holies the same as God did in the old testament and for him to be able to do that there must be a temple on the temple mount.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Murse32

[Massorite]

Not so Murse. One scripture only tells us that there will not ever be a 'pre trib" rapture and Jesus is very clear on that point. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after thr tribulation of those days". These words and the words 'and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds (glory) of heaven in verse 30 tell us that beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus will be appearing in the clouds and sending His angels to pick us up "after the tribulation of those days" and there is nothing gray about these words spoken by Jesus and recorded by Matthew.

Another thing you might want to consider is that there is no scriptural proof what so ever written any where in the bible about the charactoristics of the pre-tribImmediately racharacteristicspture concept. There is no where in the bible where you can find the bible telling us that there will be "seven years of tribulation". There is no biblical proof that the "restrainer is the church" and the only entity that actually restrains and fights for the people of God in the spirit realm is Micheal the arch angel.

The pre-trib doctrImmediatelyine also teaches that there will be a post resurrection evangelistic movement done by the 144,000 that will cover the whole globe after the seven years of tribulation begins and it will be those newly born Christians who will be suffering the great tribulation/persecution who will be dieing by the millions in the name of Christ. But guess what? The bible never says anything about any movement to re-evangelise the world after the ressurrection nor does the bible say that the 144,000 chosen Isrealite are going to be going anywhere but it does say that they are going to be in Isreal.

The botton line is that the pre-tribevangelizeresurrectionIsraeliteIsraelbottom doctrine is not scripturally provable and if these things are not written in the bible they don't exist.

As for the bride of Christ. He will be doing with His bride exactly as Jewish custom dictates. He will come to the brides house along with His enterage and pick her up. Next He will take her to His Fathers house and presantentouragepresent her to Him as an except-able gift and from there to the wedding supper. I probably skipped something but what the hay.

For your point to be valid, you would have to show that Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, was speaking to the church.

To be honest with you I have to tell you that I have never studied the Olivet Discourse. But I am going to be doing that now. However what does the Olivet Discorse have to do with what is not written in the bible?

You are using verses in Matthew 24 to attempt to prove that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. To do so, you need to display that Jesus was speaking to or about the church.

OK when Jesus was speaking verses 4-34 in Matthew 24 He was talking to a group of His disciples. Though those disciples were Jews (and Peter was among them) they were at that time b eing groomed to take over what Jesus started after He is crucified. Does that make them anything other then the church leaders who among other things splite up and were instramental in spreading the Gospel. Those deciples were the church and Peter who was the rock that Jesus build His chruch on was only actually one of those rocks. There were eleven others rocks/foundations and those foundations are what Jesus used to to build His church on. Without a foundation nothing will stand for very long.

So was Jesus talking to Jews? Yes! Was Jesus talking to saved Jews? Yes! Were there any unsaved Jews who were a part the Church that Jesus built? No! The very day that Jesus called His very first Jew to the ministry, Jesus began to build the church we now have today.

Now of the several prophecies that Jesus made in Matthew 24 how many of those events actually happened before all of those disciples died? A few but not all.

Before all of those disciples died there were false prophets, there were wars and rumors of wars. There were nations that rose up against each other but nothing like what we have today. Before all of the disciples died, the disciples and other people who had excepted Christ thrcharacteristicsough their efforts were already being persecuted and killed in the name of Christ. But were all of those events the beginning of sorrows? No!

Did iniquity abound like it does today and will in the future? No! Has the Gospel been preached to all of the world? No but we are close. Has the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel 12:11 taken place yet? No, because in 70 AD the Temple was burned down but there was no abomination "set up" inside or outside of the Temple of God and the temple was full of Jews when it was burnt down.

Did those who were in Judea flee to the mountains? According to Josephus as the Romans came toward Jerusalem they conqured ever city they came across driving people out or they fled to Jerusalem for the safety of the high walls but there is no historical record of any mass exodus from Judea to the mountains.

Verses 17-20 fall into the same catagory. It can be claimed that they have already taken place but there is no proof and they all can happen again in the future.

Verse 21 "For the shall be great tribevangelizeresurrectionIsraeliteIsraelbottomulation such as was not since the beginning of theentourage world to this time no nor ever shall be"Discourse The jimongusness of this tribulation period will be greater then anything that has ever happened since the death of Jesus. Even the Holocaust was far worse then anything that happened during the three and one half years of the siege of Jerusalem and there will be a far worse tribulation in the future.

Has Jesus risen from the east like it says He will in verse 27? No! Has the sun been darkened? Yes on the day that Christ died but only for three hours. The stars did not fall from heaven, the moon did not turn blood red and there has so far never been the sign of His coming. He hasn't sent His angels and His elect hasn't been gathered yet.

We are the generation that has not past away before all of these events will take place, and when they have all happened we will be taken up.

The way I see it, from the day that Jesus started speaking to anybody about the gospel and people started getting saved is that day the church started and it was His church He was talking to when He was telling His disciples about all of these events. What does He say? Where there are two or three, there am I also and there were twelve that day.

[Gauntlet]

Personally, I don't worry about all this trib/mid-trib/post-trib stuff. Whatever will be will be.

Wise man.

How does that Serenity Prayer go?

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;

Enjoying one moment at a time;

Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;

Taking, as He did, this sinful world

as it is, not as I would have it;

Trusting that He will make all things right

if I surrender to His Will;

That I may be reasonably happy in this life

and supremely happy with Him

Forever in the next.

Amen.

Something to live by.

Indeed.

[Maranathanna]

.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Maranathanna

[Maranathanna]

Thank you Maranathanna, but I think you have me confused with another. I do not believe God has forgotten His promise. In fact, I've spent many posts, on this and on others refuting the false beliefs of the "replacement theory" and defending God's promise to the Jews.

I was supporting your statement...sorry for the confusion.

[Murse32]

Thank you Maranathanna, but I think you have me confused with another. I do not believe God has forgotten His promise. In fact, I've spent many posts, on this and on others refuting the false beliefs of the "replacement theory" and defending God's promise to the Jews.

I was supporting your statement...sorry for the confusion.

Gotcha

LOL, I thought I was getting spanked for something I didn't do! But you are correct as far as your last post goes. I believe many have become egotistical. Jewish persecution is just as alive today as was before. We need to know that God still loves them and considers them chosen...after all...They are His firstborn.

[Maranathanna]

..I do not believe God has forgotten His promise. In fact, I've spent many posts, on this and on others refuting the false beliefs of the "replacement theory" and defending God's promise to the Jews.

I was supporting your statement...sorry for the confusion.

Gotcha

LOL, I thought I was getting spanked for something I didn't do! But you are correct as far as your last post goes. I believe many have become egotistical. Jewish persecution is just as alive today as was before. We need to know that God still loves them and considers them chosen...after all...They are His firstborn.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. As persecution rises against believers of Jesus Christ it will increasingly rise against Israel, the Jews. When Ahmadinejad (who strongly denies the Holocaust) described Israel as a "disgraceful blot" and that they should be "wiped off the face of the earth" back in 2005, he raised the level of anti-semitism and is fulfilling Psalm 83:3,4 "They make shrewd plans against Your people, And conspire together against Your treasured ones. They have said, "Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation, That the name of Israel be remembered no more."

We, as Bible-believing born again Christians, have to remember that Israel has not nor will be "forgotten" by Abba Father. Romans 11 reminds us of that specifically. Believing Jews are our brothers and sisters in Christ and of this world, they are the original "chosen".

[Massorite]

Thank you Maranathanna, but I think you have me confused with another. I do not believe God has forgotten His promise. In fact, I've spent many posts, on this and on others refuting the false beliefs of the "replacement theory" and defending God's promise to the Jews.

I was supporting your statement...sorry for the confusion.

Gotcha

LOL, I thought I was getting spanked for something I didn't do! But you are correct as far as your last post goes. I believe many have become egotistical. Jewish persecution is just as alive today as was before. We need to know that God still loves them and considers them chosen...after all...They are His firstborn.

OK Murse maybe we can use this post. This time I will make it a little shorter if I can.

The pre-trib concept teaches that the seven years will be the wrath of God. Basically they mix up the wrath of God and the great tribulation as being one and the same event. My question is always "If there is seven years of the wrath of God. When does the tribulation take place?" The word tribulation means "affliction" and the word "wrath" when speaking of the wrath of God means "punishment". They are actually two different events.

Last year there were several hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world who were killed in the name of Christ and here is what I always like to point out to those who preach the pre-trib concept.

Those Christians were beaten to death, burned alive, had their heads cut off, put in jail and tortured daily, some were even held over an open flame so the flames burned their bodies in an effort to force convert them, young girls and woman had acid thrown into their faces and I could go on.

So the big question is this. Did those Christians suffer the wrath of God or did they suffer great tribulation? We all know that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God so the only thing left is "great tribulation". What about the millions of Christians who died in the name of Christ during the first 300 years of the church? What was so different about them? How are we any better then they were.

Any time there is much discussion about the pre-trib teaching almost no body ever talks about the significance of the three and one half years spoken about in several places in both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. The 3 1/2 years is spoken of as a time and times and dividing of time, a time and times and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days, the ministry of the two witnesses is 3 1/2 years, in chapter 12 of Revelation Israel is protected for 3 1/2 years, In Daniel the antichrist will make a deal/covenant with Isreal for seven years and in mid week (3 1/2 years into the seven years) he breaks his promise to Isreal.

So what is it about the 3 1/2 years mark? Why is it so important that it is spoken of so many times.

You see my brother the church isn't going to be rebuilt after the resurrection because when Jesus comes back for His bride the Holy Spirit will be taken also. because then the wrath of God will come upon the word and it is not going to be any kind of testing for the world it will be punishment for the world. Why will the Holy Spirit be removed? Because the Holy Spirit is that part of God that spews grace and love. It is kind of like oil ands water. One can not mix with the other and the same goes for the Holy Spirit and the wrath of God. They both can not abide or dominate on the earth at the same time.

But Isreal will be protected from the wrath of God just like they were in Egypt. When there were frogs in Egypt there were no frogs in Goshen, when the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen was still sweet and so on.

Here is what I believe. There will be a seven year period in which a period of tribulation will take place and a period of the wrath of God will take place. The tribulation period will take place in the first half of the seven and the resurrection will take place at the end of the tribulation period at the 3 1/2 years mark. The second half will be when the wrath of God comes to earth. I believe that the new temple will be built before or during the first 3 1/2 years and when the antichrist sits in the temple and claims to be God is when all hell breaks loose on earth.

At the end of the seven years Jesus will return and begin to reign for a 1000 years.

As far as the church doing any healing during a tribulation period goes it would behoove you to study what the early church was like during great tribulation.

The early church had great tribulation but smack dab in the middle of that great tribulation was great revival. The Spirit of God flowed so much so that many of the unsaved who witnessed the suffering of the of the early Christians were moved to be saved because they could see that in the middle of all of their suffering they never lost their spark and the unsaved could see that and wanted what they had.

So could miracles happen during great tribulation? Yes! Why? Because it has already been that way once.

You are correct when you say that the church will be tested during great tribulation. But God will be in the middle of that great tribulation with us giving us strength to endure to the end.

I agree. The Jews are still the apple of the eye of God. Proof of that is the fact that Israel is surrounded by their enemies 43 to one and are not destroyed. But no Jew will be going to heaven or receive eternal life unless they except Christ. Which means that unless they except Christ they can not be the elect. We who are saved know what angels desire to know but an unsaved Jew does not know what we know.

My point is that because we are saved we are equal to the saved Jew but above the unsaved Jew. I guess if you don't see by what I have said that we are no different then any saved Jew. Oh well.

We should remember that Jesus was offered to us only after the Jews rejected Him first. When you graft a limb to a tree that limb b becomes part of that tree and after a while one can not tell the difference between the grafted limb and the tree.

And yes we must stick together period.

Be Blessed

Robert

[Bold Believer]

There is no dispute amongst Believers that 'the rapture' will take place. The question is not will it happen, but WHEN will it happen. Since this is the true issue, we must go to the words of the Author of the Book.

Jesus never described a pre-tribulation rapture. Not once. It's not there. He speaks of the end of the age (Which age? The age of the Law.) which historically ended in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple foretold by Daniel and Jesus. At that point, the city was made desolate according to the prophecy. The Book of Revelation describes that destruction to a tee. The prophet Jeremiah spoke of that time as the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Whose? Jacob's. Jacob was not Israel, he became Israel. Likewise, every Jew is not a part of Israel either. Paul speaks of a remnant of Jews set apart by election. THAT REMNANT is Israel. All of the remnant will be saved. The rest of the ethnic Jews, like the unbelieving ethnic Gentiles will not.

The Diaspora ended in 1947 or 1948 depending on how one reckons the Return of the Jews to the Land. God is working in the Land of Israel gathering the remnant, which will be regrafted back into the Tree. Who is the Remnant? Only God knows. I can say with a measure of confidence that it is NOT the entire Nation of Israel as it now exists in the Middle East, but that there are certainly members of the Remnant living there now.

Some teachers in the Church are doing a great disservice to her by teaching a doctrine that takes many Scriptures out of their historical context and twists them into a mish-mash of unintelligible gobbledygook that makes no historic sense and frankly, little theological sense either.

The great tribulation which Jesus spoke of is long gone. Trying to project it into the future is causing nothing but problems. Understood in its proper historic context, it makes all the sense in the world. You can believe what you will, I can't stop you, but I think you believe it both in error and to the detriment of your spiritual growth and understanding.

[Murse32]

OK Murse maybe we can use this post. This time I will make it a little shorter if I can.

This is shorter!?! LOL, maybe we should exchange emails. J/K

The pre-trib concept teaches that the seven years will be the wrath of God. Basically they mix up the wrath of God and the great tribulation as being one and the same event. My question is always "If there is seven years of the wrath of God. When does the tribulation take place?" The word tribulation means "affliction" and the word "wrath" when speaking of the wrath of God means "punishment". They are actually two different events.

Last year there were several hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world who were killed in the name of Christ and here is what I always like to point out to those who preach the pre-trib concept.

Those Christians were beaten to death, burned alive, had their heads cut off, put in jail and tortured daily, some were even held over an open flame so the flames burned their bodies in an effort to force convert them, young girls and woman had acid thrown into their faces and I could go on.

So the big question is this. Did those Christians suffer the wrath of God or did they suffer great tribulation? We all know that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God so the only thing left is "great tribulation". What about the millions of Christians who died in the name of Christ during the first 300 years of the church? What was so different about them? How are we any better then they were.

Well, you're not entirely correct. Pre-tribbers, as myself, don't believe the entire seven years will be "wrathful". In fact, during this time period I believe their will be great peace in the lands. This is what's going to kick everything off. I believe whoever is the anti-christ, will somehow develop a peace treaty between Israel and the other lands. The Jews will see this as the coming of their Messiah. Keep in mind, The Jews rejected Jesus not only because He proclaimed Himself to be God, but because He didn't bring physical peace to a physical land how they believed it would be. This antichirst, will do just that. They will hail him as a messiah, erect the temple. This will be a joyous time for many. But, during this time period, there will also be the two witnesses. They will be preaching in the streets (Rev 11). Many believe, yet noone knows for sure, that this possibly could be Enoch and Elijah. These two never died, yet we know it is appointed for each man to die once. Though these two were OT prophets, they still saw the coming of the Messiah. Just as David prophecied about the coming Messiah, so did these two. These prophets will be a warning to the Jews that they have missed and rejected what was intended for them. We know that they will be given power...we know they will be killed. It is also important to note how the seals/trumpets/ and bowls run in order. Many believe that some are simutaneous, but if read carefully, you can see the seventh seal is the prelude to the trumpets and than the bowls. So if the seals and trumpets are the first half and the bowls are the last half, we must look into the seals and trumpets to see if there is only tribulation within them and not wrath.

In the trumpets, we see plagues though. Even in the OT when Moses prophesied the plagues to come on Egypt, the Jews were not harmed. Even death "passedover" them if the blood was covering their door way.

Now, you do make many interesting points. But one thing you have to keep in mind, is that God's tribulation and wrath are different than persecutions we must endure through on a day to day basis. We see persecution all the time. Look how many hate us for what we believe. Look how many are trying to shut us up. Look how many would love for us to just go away. They look at us like a "cancer", I have been told. If we were to be taken in the beginning, how many would rejoice? But these persecutions are not of God...they are from the world. The time to come upon the world...tribulation and wrath, is from God himself. He does not appoint His children to wrath and or plagues. He even said He would keep us from such a time. I think that is important to understand that God "allows" tribulation to happen in our lives, but I wouldn't say He "causes" it. does that make sense?

Any time there is much discussion about the pre-trib teaching almost no body ever talks about the significance of the three and one half years spoken about in several places in both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. The 3 1/2 years is spoken of as a time and times and dividing of time, a time and times and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days, the ministry of the two witnesses is 3 1/2 years, in chapter 12 of Revelation Israel is protected for 3 1/2 years, In Daniel the antichrist will make a deal/covenant with Isreal for seven years and in mid week (3 1/2 years into the seven years) he breaks his promise to Isreal.

So what is it about the 3 1/2 years mark? Why is it so important that it is spoken of so many times.

You see my brother the church isn't going to be rebuilt after the resurrection because when Jesus comes back for His bride the Holy Spirit will be taken also. because then the wrath of God will come upon the word and it is not going to be any kind of testing for the world it will be punishment for the world. Why will the Holy Spirit be removed? Because the Holy Spirit is that part of God that spews grace and love. It is kind of like oil ands water. One can not mix with the other and the same goes for the Holy Spirit and the wrath of God. They both can not abide or dominate on the earth at the same time.

But Isreal will be protected from the wrath of God just like they were in Egypt. When there were frogs in Egypt there were no frogs in Goshen, when the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen was still sweet and so on.

Here is what I believe. There will be a seven year period in which a period of tribulation will take place and a period of the wrath of God will take place. The tribulation period will take place in the first half of the seven and the resurrection will take place at the end of the tribulation period at the 3 1/2 years mark. The second half will be when the wrath of God comes to earth. I believe that the new temple will be built before or during the first 3 1/2 years and when the antichrist sits in the temple and claims to be God is when all hell breaks loose on earth.

See, once again, I don't feel you truly understand pre-trib teaching...not saying you are ignorant, by no means, you are very smart, but we look at the time line with GREAT importance. As you can tell, I love this stuff!!! Eschatology has always been a passion of mine. But to break down Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Isaiah into a commentary...would take pages and pages. And as we can see, you and I have been quite long winded already!! LOL

Just look up these scriptures: Daniel 12:1, Ish 26:19, Luke 17:30, Luke 21:35-36, Rev 3:10. I know another has posted these in a different post, but these are very good. They are worth reposting.

At the end of the seven years Jesus will return and begin to reign for a 1000 years.

As far as the church doing any healing during a tribulation period goes it would behoove you to study what the early church was like during great tribulation.

The early church had great tribulation but smack dab in the middle of that great tribulation was great revival. The Spirit of God flowed so much so that many of the unsaved who witnessed the suffering of the of the early Christians were moved to be saved because they could see that in the middle of all of their suffering they never lost their spark and the unsaved could see that and wanted what they had.

So could miracles happen during great tribulation? Yes! Why? Because it has already been that way once.

You are correct when you say that the church will be tested during great tribulation. But God will be in the middle of that great tribulation with us giving us strength to endure to the end.

You make it sound like I haven't studied the bible nor the early churches, in fact, I've done much studying in this area. I'm not saying that the churches didn't produce fruit from tribulational periods. If my words were mixed, I appologize for that. Let me clear up my thoughts. First, it is important to understand the healings you talk about. Healings come from God and only God. The reason the first church apostles and disciples were able to "lay hands" on people and heal, was to show they were of God. That they were preaching a true gospel. Even in our letters healings now are to be done by contacting the elders of the church in order for them to "pray over" the person...not touch them. But this is a different discussion for a different post. My point though, Is that if God ordains tribulation and wrath, by us healing, would go against His will. We have no such power to do so. A very weak example is that if God himself dug a hole because He wanted it and ordained it...and we were to come along and fill it in. I know, this is the best I can do at this moment...my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. LOL

I agree. The Jews are still the apple of the eye of God. Proof of that is the fact that Israel is surrounded by their enemies 43 to one and are not destroyed. But no Jew will be going to heaven or receive eternal life unless they except Christ. Which means that unless they except Christ they can not be the elect. We who are saved know what angels desire to know but an unsaved Jew does not know what we know.

My point is that because we are saved we are equal to the saved Jew but above the unsaved Jew. I guess if you don't see by what I have said that we are no different then any saved Jew. Oh well.

We should remember that Jesus was offered to us only after the Jews rejected Him first. When you graft a limb to a tree that limb b becomes part of that tree and after a while one can not tell the difference between the grafted limb and the tree.

And yes we must stick together period.

Be Blessed

Robert

Ok, I can agree that we are equal to the Jews now...But we are in the Church age. If the pre-trib rapture is correct, the church age will be over. I know this is difficult for some to understand because they think by me saying the church age is over, that the age of grace is complete as well. This is simply not the case. I believe the removal of the church is simply God picking up where He left off in Daniel. Does this mean that people can now get to Heaven in this time without Christ? NO!! Israel has been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years. We know that many OT jews made it to Heaven before Christ came. How? They had the law of God written on their hearts...they followed the law and waited with faith for their Messiah. They were righteous before God, because He knows the hearts of men. Because the church age is over, does not mean that many Jews will not realize they missed the messiah. Im sure the two witnesses will bring forth much fruit. They will do this by preaching the gospel. The gospel today is to be spread by US. If we are gone, it will be left to another to do...God's word will always be heard one way or another.

Ok, I could go on forever...I've said enough though. Take care my brother...and Yes, you are so correct, we must stick together, period!!

With love in Christ.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Murse32