Evoloution is a true leap of faith

[Sir Gareth]

I beleive in God and the bible due to both a spiritual event in my life, when I felt the precence of God calling to me through the bible, after many years as a neo-pagan who had throughly denounced the bible as being corrupted and used as a basis for such attrocities as the 'witch hunts' and inquisition. I beleive in the bible, I thank God for pulling me out of the pit of hellfire I had dug for myself and am eternally grateful for his salvation.

The scientific side of myself has been swayed by the vast amount of textual, archeological and historic evidence. I would still be willing to weigh evidence for evolution if you could produce some. I suppose the proof I would want to see is a transition animal, a fish/frog or a bird/dinosaur or an ape-man of some sort.

The greatest proof for creation for me is to look around at the world an ask yourself, could such a wonderful and beautiful place truly have been an accident?

[Xaxyx]

The scientific side of myself has been swayed by the vast amount of textual, archeological and historic evidence. I would still be willing to weigh evidence for evolution if you could produce some. I suppose the proof I would want to see is a transition animal, a fish/frog or a bird/dinosaur or an ape-man of some sort.

I would be more than happy to produce such evidence for you. We can then analyze such creatures and determine for ourselves if they qualify as what you would term as a "transition animal". Do you have any particular preference? From fish to amphibian? From dinosaur to bird? From great ape to Neanderthal?

Actually, unless you object, I'm going to go with dinosaurs to birds. Dinosaurs are just lots of fun for everyone! Allow me to introduce you to the Theropod, a bipedal saurischian dinosaur. The name translates to "beast feet". Probably not much a dancer, this fellow.

As their fossils show, Theropod looked much like your typical large, angry, two-footed dinosaur. Growl, stomp. But they laid eggs, just like birds. They even brooded (sat on) their eggs, just like birds. And they had feathers, just like birds.

Feathers? On a dinosaur?! You betcha. Feathers, it is believed, were originally evolved as a source of warmth in cold weather, much like fur serves today's mammals. It was only after a long period of time and many evolutionary changes that feathers were able to serve the purposes of flight. Consider how many species of flightless birds there are, as compared to their flying cousins.

Obviously, dropping one wacky dinosaur in your lap won't suffice -- nor should it! I'm not sure which avenue you'd like to follow next, though, so I'll leave that choice up to you. Want to research this particular species with me some more? Look at some other dinosaurs? See transitional creatures from other time periods? Look at how all of this information on dinosaurs and other long-lost critters is gathered, categorized, analyzed? Any angle is fine by me.

The greatest proof for creation for me is to look around at the world an ask yourself, could such a wonderful and beautiful place truly have been an accident?

This is a form of the Natural Law Fallacy. The answer, in this case, is yes, such a wonderful and beautiful place -- and it truly is both wondrous and beautiful -- could indeed have come out without intelligent direction. Acknowledging this diminishes neither the wonder nor beauty for me.

[Sir Gareth]

Dinosaur's have been known to lay eggs for quite a long time. I've also known of several feathered dinosaurs for quite awhile, did you know they now theorize that the feared T-Rex also might have had feathers? If having one or two bird like qualities makes you a bird where does that put the platapus, several orders of fish and reptiles? Having a few similar qualities does not denote a geneological relationship.

So do many other kinds of animals, does that mean that we should consider fish to be birds also?

Now, do we find these fossils alongisde other dinosaur fossils? It would be hard to explain why, if this is a transitory creature, the fossils appear in the same time period.

Darwin made his claim to evolution more than a century ago, why is it we have no good evidence to substantiate his theory?

I would like to point out that no matter how good of evidence there is for evolution, it still will not shake my faith in the bible. God has saved me simply out of love, it would be wrong of me to turn my back on him. I have not yet seen any evidence that cannot be reconciled with the bible and I do not think I will encounter any in the future.

[MorningGlory]

If you expect proof of evolution rather than just evidence, it is reasonable to expect proof of creation rather than just evidence. I've seen very little evidence of creation and certainly no proof.

What? You've never looked in a mirror?

Looking in the mirror neither proves evolution or creation. It proves it's a mirror.

When you look INTO a mirror you usually see yourself staring back at you......one's reflection does not prove a mirror.

[Xaxyx]

Dinosaur's have been known to lay eggs for quite a long time. I've also known of several feathered dinosaurs for quite awhile, did you know they now theorize that the feared T-Rex also might have had feathers?

Really? That's fascinating. I'll have to look into that.

If having one or two bird like qualities makes you a bird where does that put the platapus, several orders of fish and reptiles?

Woah there, hold your horses -- er, dinosaurs. I don't recall asserting that "having one or two bird-like qualities makes you a bird." In fact, I'm pretty sure we were talking about transitional animals. Transitional, as in, not quite the former, and not quite the latter.

Having a few similar qualities does not denote a geneological relationship. So do many other kinds of animals, does that mean that we should consider fish to be birds also?

Having a few similar qualities doesn't mean squat, of its own accord. Seeing a single dinosaur with a few feathers doesn't immediately cause us to be able to draw the conclusion that they're related to birds. That would be poor science. What it does, however, is allow us to start asking questions, start analyzing fossilized remains and seeing if a pattern of relationship can be conclusively drawn.

Scientists are already working to uncover the genome of a vast variety of animals. Hopefully, they'll eventually be able to gather suitable genetic specimens of dinosaurs and other ancient creatures in order to better establish the evolutionary chain. But this will take some time.

Now, do we find these fossils alongisde other dinosaur fossils? It would be hard to explain why, if this is a transitory creature, the fossils appear in the same time period.

Why wouldn't it? Species can evolve without becoming extinct. Indeed: this would be expected. Consider two groups of the same animal living in two different valleys. Over the course of thousands of years, one group could gradually adapt certain traits that the other group did not. Eventually, one group would hardly resemble the other. Yet they both exist simultaneously. There are many examples of this. For instance, many insect species that exist today are very similar they were millions of years ago. Comparison to fossilized remains confirms this. Many bacteria have existed for hundreds of millions of years in the same form that they exist in right now.

Darwin made his claim to evolution more than a century ago, why is it we have no good evidence to substantiate his theory?

It is poor science to assume that this evidence does not exist. I've given you one example, and you've already drawn a conclusion? I find that disappointing. I would hope for more objectivity. Indeed: I am willing to patiently show you as many examples of evidence substantiating evolutionary theory as you would care to accept. I certainly hope your patience hasn't worn down already.

I would like to point out that no matter how good of evidence there is for evolution, it still will not shake my faith in the bible. God has saved me simply out of love, it would be wrong of me to turn my back on him. I have not yet seen any evidence that cannot be reconciled with the bible and I do not think I will encounter any in the future.

You seem to have made an assumption about me, so I feel it's important that I clarify this to the best of my ability. I am not interested in interfering with your faith in your god. I am respectful of your beliefs. You can believe whatever you want. Indeed, I vehemently defend the right of the faithful to retain and exercise their beliefs whenever they see fit. Knock yourself out.

All I've stopped by to do is talk about science. Present evidence. Draw conclusions from that evidence. Whether or not that conflicts with your faith is, if I may be carefully blunt, not my concern. Your faith is your own.

If you can believe that much about my intentions, then please say so, and we can continue our rational discourse on evolutionary evidence. If you cannot, then I doubt there would be much point in our discussions, as you would be consistently suspicious of my supposed ulterior motives.

Again, the choice is yours.

[ollkiller]

If you expect proof of evolution rather than just evidence, it is reasonable to expect proof of creation rather than just evidence. I've seen very little evidence of creation and certainly no proof.

What? You've never looked in a mirror?

Looking in the mirror neither proves evolution or creation. It proves it's a mirror.

When you look INTO a mirror you usually see yourself staring back at you......one's reflection does not prove a mirror.

the rolling eyes, the bane of my existence

sorry for going off topic again but, one's reflection certainly does not prove a mirror but seeing one's reflection in a mirror definetly proves it's a mirror.

Anyway i get your point, seeing yourself proves creation. Right? We'll agree to disagree. Carry on......

[MorningGlory]

If you expect proof of evolution rather than just evidence, it is reasonable to expect proof of creation rather than just evidence. I've seen very little evidence of creation and certainly no proof.

What? You've never looked in a mirror?

Looking in the mirror neither proves evolution or creation. It proves it's a mirror.

When you look INTO a mirror you usually see yourself staring back at you......one's reflection does not prove a mirror.

the rolling eyes, the bane of my existence

sorry for going off topic again but, one's reflection certainly does not prove a mirror but seeing one's reflection in a mirror definetly proves it's a mirror.

Anyway i get your point, seeing yourself proves creation. Right? We'll agree to disagree. Carry on......

Good. As long as we agree....then I won't have to do this anymore!

[Sir Gareth]

I am willing to see any evidence you have, and I do not think your trying to shake my faith, I was just pointing out that due to spiritual experiences I've had I have come to trust the bible as infalable.

I have confidance that any evidence for evolution can be reconciled to creationism.

I'm also respect your right to your belief, but I personally believe (and many others agree) that the evidence for creation is stronger than the evidence for evolution.

Your mention of beleiving everyone has a right to their own beleif brings up another question for me.

If creation and evolution are both theories and neither has been proven 100% (as far as science knows) why is evolution pushed so hard and creation left behind in school? I'm not saying that teachers should use Genesis as a text book to teach kids but can't creationism at least be presented as a competing theory to evolution in public schools?

[Ovedya]

I am willing to see any evidence you have, and I do not think your trying to shake my faith, I was just pointing out that due to spiritual experiences I've had I have come to trust the bible as infalable.

I have confidance that any evidence for evolution can be reconciled to creationism.

I'm also respect your right to your belief, but I personally believe (and many others agree) that the evidence for creation is stronger than the evidence for evolution.

Your mention of beleiving everyone has a right to their own beleif brings up another question for me.

If creation and evolution are both theories and neither has been proven 100% (as far as science knows) why is evolution pushed so hard and creation left behind in school? I'm not saying that teachers should use Genesis as a text book to teach kids but can't creationism at least be presented as a competing theory to evolution in public schools?

Hahahahah. Yeah creationism isn't "left behind" as much as it is completely left out. As in completely and/or utterly. Science deals with evidence; there is evidence for evolution and a very old earth, there is no evidence for a young earth and any meaningful metaphysical evidences for any specific God extend beyond the scope of the scientific method. Translation = creationism isn't science so it's not taught in science class.

However, in terms of "theory" Creationism should have just as much exposure as evolution. Another aspect of science is that it deals with various hypotheses and theory, irrespective of evidence. So if one scientist suddenly says, "Hey I think we all evolved from rocks," and another says, "No, I think life began from a speck of space fungus having fallen to the earth at just the right time," both hypotheses should be given equal credence, then tested. After having been tested one hypothesis may develop into a theory.

In terms of the scientific process neither Creationism nor Evolution have gone past the stage of "theory." Therefore, they deserve equal consideration in the classroom.

[Guest]

Hahahahah. Yeah creationism isn't "left behind" as much as it is completely left out...... Science deals with evidence; there is evidence for evolution.....

No HahHahHah About It, The Instant You Die Or Look Up As The LORD Descends

"Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep." Luke 6:25

You Will Find This Is Sober Business For Serious Seekers

"Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh." Luke 6:21

And Neither Science Nor Science Fiction Will Excuse

"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day,

witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely:

for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him;

for this thing was not done in a corner." Acts 26:22-26

A Fellow From The WORD Of God

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2

Coming Back In Power

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Even Snickers Fail

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." Romans 14:11-12

Only Faith Saves

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Confessing "Jesus Is LORD"

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Have You Not Heard? Did No One Care To Share The Good News?

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:6

Man Sinned And Death Entered Into The Earth

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

But God So Loved The World

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

That You Might Believe

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

And Be Saved

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

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See Jesus And Believe

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:"

"The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:"

"The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace."

"And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

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