Instantaneous sanctification-being made holy

[Massorite]

While browsing the related threads post`s i came accross two attempts to answer what and how sanctification exists.

One by George which i read 40 % of the posts esp begining and end and one by givenname that got sidetracked i think. And neither gave what i believe was a satisfactory explanation.

I dont say this in pride, and i havnt come into the experience i am about to describe. But here is what i now understand and if any man beat me to it, i can only rejoice.

Circumcision is symbolic of Christ` work in our hearts. Now sanctification may in part be a process i dont know, but the flesh was cut off in one swipe.

The fact that two words justification and sanctification is enough to prove sanctification does not occur at salvation, although positionally this may be so. Every thing was finished on the cross positionally.

To be clear, justification is a gift and work of God recieved by faith. But what i hope to show here is that sanctification is also a gift and a work of God, yet a second work and not to do with salvation but purification.

When we get saved we experience a rush or measure of Gods Spirit. This greatly subdues sin in our life and it is marvelous how that first year is so much like a honeymoon. But if your anything like me, gradually some sins that you thought were gone, began to rise up. Through prayer, fellowship and the word we find a measure of sucess in subduing and even overcoming some sins, depending on the degree of obedience to these disciplines.

This is what disturbs many, that it seems impossible to rid all sin, and yet we know instinctively that surely theres more to it than this for a child of God.

So we either try harder or we begin to hide behind fig leaves. Both methods will not work, and God tries to call us out of them.

In my own case i became very discouraged and began to think the gospel to be the "bad news". I wanted to be victorious and see Gods power set people free, but my own life seem to sink into the quicksand of sin. The more i struggled the more i sank.

It was at a very low point that i cried out to the Lord, and He showed me that although i was saved i needed to hold still while he performed heart surgery on me. We all need and can get a new heart subsequent to salvation. The old heart/man is wicked beyond repair and putting a patch on it will not do.

How? only God knows, when? when we believe Him and ask Him to do it, leaving it in His hands, in His time and His way. This is what it means to be Holy as God is Holy. What He commands, He also gives grace to do but in this case He is the one that does it. This is sanctification proper.

It is Christ living in us with a new heart that He is well pleased to dwell with. So it is no longer i that lives but Christ in me the hope of glory. This is not a theological theory or a positional placing that Paul enthusiastically proclaims, its a reality for him and can be for us too.

Well thats my take on it, i have much more i could say, but will leave it for readers to decide if it reasonates. I do not intend to debate this so take it or leave it.

I may post more later depending on the response, but not in direct reply necessarily.

The answer has nothing to do with circumcision or anything else that we can do ourselves. Simply put "We are sanctified, justified and made righteous in the eyes of God because of the shed BLOOD of Christ who is the Son of God and our risen SAVIOUR. Which is why when we get saved we are all of the above. Not because we are but because that is how God see's us as soon as we reach out to Jesus and are saved. We are sinners but to God we are righteous through the shed blood of Christ.

[KC02]

Well it's not too often that I can say this on this forum, but I believe everything you said. Well not every word, but now we are getting closer to what justification and sanctification means.

I'm fresh out of gold stars. How about a

I would hate to stand before God on the last day with only my good works and holiness. But I feel very confident about standing under the Blood that washes away sin.

I feel sorry for the "sanctified" people if that's all ya got.

The answer has nothing to do with circumcision or anything else that we can do ourselves. Simply put "We are sanctified, justified and made righteous in the eyes of God because of the shed BLOOD of Christ who is the Son of God and our risen SAVIOUR. Which is why when we get saved we are all of the above. Not because we are but because that is how God see's us as soon as we reach out to Jesus and are saved. We are sinners but to God we are righteous through the shed blood of Christ.

[KC02]

Barking? What? Are you saying that do be funny?

The Azusa St guy, William Seymour, was the complete opposite of what you are thinking of today. He wasn't loud. He didn't run the isles. And there wasn't the nonsense you see today, like waving your hands and the whole choir falls out.

If I was a pastor, I would hand out dog leashes to the barkers. They wouldn't bark in my church but one time. Do you think the Apostle Paul would put up with that for one minute?

But God is still on the throne and has something for us. Those people don't bother me.

I have not to date seen anything to decry the antics of Azusa st, but i am wary of much of pentecostalism that i am involved in, i.e barking, jerking, writhing around on the floor etc. When two women in a church meeting held by the Wesley bros, started disorderly laughter they were censorsed and eventually sought deliverance and repented.

[Massorite]

Well it's not too often that I can say this on this forum, but I believe everything you said. Well not every word, but now we are getting closer to what justification and sanctification means.

I'm fresh out of gold stars. How about a

I would hate to stand before God on the last day with only my good works and holiness. But I feel very confident about standing under the Blood that washes away sin.

I feel sorry for the "sanctified" people if that's all ya got.

The answer has nothing to do with circumcision or anything else that we can do ourselves. Simply put "We are sanctified, justified and made righteous in the eyes of God because of the shed BLOOD of Christ who is the Son of God and our risen SAVIOUR. Which is why when we get saved we are all of the above. Not because we are but because that is how God see's us as soon as we reach out to Jesus and are saved. We are sinners but to God we are righteous through the shed blood of Christ.

Thankyou very much.

[Smalcald]

Hi S i see you have come as far as you can and Im really not trying to insist anyone recieve what im saying, so i will just reply to one more thing here unless you specifically ask clarification of me.

You rightly ask how can we know if we have no sin, as this appears to be tightrope of self analyisation, but it is instead the peace of God that there is nothing at that moment of time that disturbs our conscience before God and man.

I admit freely that i am not in this place, and only assert that a good many reliable sources have testified of it as a specific thing God did and that it had the effect of circumcising their heart and rendering them unwilling to veer to the left or the right. Not to be confused with being unable to as a mechanical thing.

I do see a problem for you as you then appear to go on to assume that "if we cannot know" then...., but we are helped if we look to reliable sources who say how they knew.

I guess it comes down to which example of holiness preachers we are examining, i myself only know of the ones i have already stated but i am aware there are many deluded examples out there, who do much harm to the cause of Christ and as well the faith to believe in true holiness in this life.

Peace to you S.

Yes I think the peace you speak of IS possible and I do think it is also possible for Christian to have a clear conscience before God.

"be still and know that I am God".

[AdriaanM]

What is holiness? In modern thinking holiness is the absence of sin. This is only partially true because even if a person lives in total absence of sin he is still not holy. Only God is holy and there exist no holiness apart from Him. No person is even good let alone holy. When a certain ruler called Jesus

[JCISGD]

What is holiness? In modern thinking holiness is the absence of sin. This is only partially true because even if a person lives in total absence of sin he is still not holy. Only God is holy and there exist no holiness apart from Him. No person is even good let alone holy. When a certain ruler called Jesus

[JCISGD]

Barking? What? Are you saying that do be funny?

The Azusa St guy, William Seymour, was the complete opposite of what you are thinking of today. He wasn't loud. He didn't run the isles. And there wasn't the nonsense you see today, like waving your hands and the whole choir falls out.

If I was a pastor, I would hand out dog leashes to the barkers. They wouldn't bark in my church but one time. Do you think the Apostle Paul would put up with that for one minute?

But God is still on the throne and has something for us. Those people don't bother me.

I have not to date seen anything to decry the antics of Azusa st, but i am wary of much of pentecostalism that i am involved in, i.e barking, jerking, writhing around on the floor etc. When two women in a church meeting held by the Wesley bros, started disorderly laughter they were censorsed and eventually sought deliverance and repented.

No brother its no laughing matter. I wasnt suggesting in the slightest that those things were found in the Azusa st revival. I was saying that i have seen it among the circles i have been in here in New Zealand among so called Pentecostals.

Yes sad as it is some have been known to bark or make other animal noises, although i dont think it is being tolerated anymore, it did happen.

If i laugh it is because of the rediculousness of it.

Edited April 12, 2009 by JCISGD

[AdriaanM]

There cannot be any doubt that we ARE instructed to live holy lives and that it IS possible.

The way of obeying this instruction is what is discussed here.

The most anyone can achieve in the way of holiness is to become like the Pharisees. (Righteous but not in spirit and

truth) What is needed is not stronger will power or better self control. What is needed is a NEW HEART. Can anyone

change his own heart? If you love violence for example, can you change your heart so that when you see it on

television you immediately and truly hate it? No, the best that you can do is to suppress your curiosity and switch off

the television or look the other way. Even this we may find difficult to do. If you have an adulterous eye, can you

change your heart so that when you see a nude woman on the television you do not look at her lustfully? No, the best

that you can do is to deny your wicket heart its desires and to either switch off the program or look away. While an

adulterer is not physically committing the act, did he stop being an adulterer? When the thief is not busy stealing is he

not a thief. We all have the inclination and desire to do sin even if we manage to restrain ourselves and not do the act.

The old self is capable of restraining its own wicket desires and to keep the law to some extend but it cannot change

itself to be good. That is why we must be born again. Due to the fall of man our very nature has become corrupted

and we are not able to achieve any degree of righteousness in ourselves. If we were able to be righteous why was the

Cross needed. No, Jesus came because every human being lacked eternally. That is why Jesus said:

Joh 17:19 And I sanctify Myself for their sakes, so that they also might be sanctified in truth.

However we are commanded to be holy and it IS possible because the Lord Jesus Christ has made it

possible for us to stay and live in Him, the vine. He IS the vine and He has already overcome the world.

If Jesus Christ lives in us, by the power of the Holy Spirit we have the source of all goodness and holiness living in us.

Now we have both the will and the power to please God. The only limitation to the manifestation of the power of God

in our lives is now our free will. Shall we walk in the Spirit or fulfill the desires of our sinful nature?

We must learn to choose to walk in the Spirit. (Gal 5:16) What about the sinful nature that we have in our flesh? We

must through faith hold that it was crucified with Christ and that it is dead and buried with Him.

2Ti 2:11 For faithful is the Word, for if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

We were resurrected with Him because the Holy Spirit, who raised Jesus Christ from the dead also now lives in us.

Rom 8:11-12

But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised

up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in

you. Therefore, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Just as a baby learns to walk we must learn to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. This takes time and we by the

grace of God eventually find that we are changing.

Jas 3:2

For in many things we all offend. If anyone does not offend in word, the same is a full-grown

man, able also to bridle the whole body.

We are not changed in that we develop stronger will power or better self control. No, we discover over time that our

hearts have changed. We no longer want to commit adultery etc. We have changed hearts and because it is not an

effort of our will, (and performed by the Spirit) we are changed and serve God in Spirit and truth.

This journey is not to make us better people. It is not to make us righteous according to our standards or that of the

church or other people. No, much more. It is to make us conform to the image of Jesus Christ. This is a process called

sanctification. It is the work of the Spirit. He IS our sanctification and righteousness.

1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and

sanctification and redemption...

1Th 5:23-24

And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be

preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who called you, who also will

do it.

Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Having said this we know that we have a responsibility also. I have mentioned earlier that we can limit the working

of the Holy Spirit in our lives because we have free will. We are required to Walk in the Spirit.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord...

Gal 5:16 I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I may not be able to explain this sufficiently but I know this, that when Jesus Christ apears we shall be perfect.

Although I strive to please Him in all things and walk in the Spirit, I have no trust in my ability and often fail, but I

know that He Who cannot fail has promised to complete the Work that He has started in me.

Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day

of Jesus Christ,

Jud 1:24-25

Now to Him being able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you before His glory without blemish, with

unspeakable joy; to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty and might and authority, even now and

forever. Amen.

Adriaan

[JCISGD]

Hi Adriaan, i think we are 90% in agreement, especially about being changed into the image of Jesus and not just a make over job.

Our disagreement is as you say, in how this is achieved.

To be clear, you are stating Sanctification to be a process and I as in my OP are stating that it is in an instant and therefore available now and we do not have to wait untill death or the return of Christ.

Also to be clear, I do not have this yet, but only believe it to be true upon reasonable evidences presented to me by those i consider more trust worthy by their fruits than myself or most of todays teachers.

Ezk 11:19 + 36:26 both clearly show God is involved and indeed the instigator of our change of heart. kjv

But Ezk 18:31 "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourself a new heart and a new spirirt. For why should you die, O house of Israel?, shows we also must participate.

So i would disagree that a person cannot choose not to lust after a woman or hate instead of enjoy violence seen on tv.

I think many Christians consider physical attraction to be lust, but this cannot be as it is our physical make up and therefore ammoral. Lust is wanting to have the object of our desire when it is immoral, i.e if we desire a woman outside of marriage or who is already married.

But back to the OP, My arguement is that it is no harder for God to instantly sanctify us than it is to do it as a process. Now to me which one is better is obviously the instant one as we can be used by God in a much greater measure, and sin is not there to hinder us.

At this point i am not arguing so much if anyone is or has been instantly sanctified, but that it is atleast possible and therefore fesible to believe for.

I am willing though to provide examples of those who have claimed it and given us no reson to believe they did not. i.e the disciples at Pentecost.

But this is putting the cart before the horse somewhat as most do not believe it even possible.

Please clarify for me your position, as you say at the beginnig of your last post that it IS possible, do you therefore believe it fesible and has been experienced by some?

Also i dont see where you prove that we can only hope to be Pharisee`s in pursuing holiness? It is agreed by me that willpower is of no use, but the promotion of I/S only serves to anihilate any hopes of self righteous effort in my opinion.

Edited April 12, 2009 by JCISGD