Ugh, you're so close-minded

[artsylady]

I can't say anyone has ever called me close-minded, because I do tend to listen and try to comprehend what the other person is trying to say. I don't reject anything saying "that's not possible". I study it and find out if there are other explanations to be considered or different ways of seeing things.

However, if someone does try to tell me God exist, with the personal knowledge and experiences I do have with God, I can't intellectually accept that as a possibility anymore. I simply have experienced things that prove to me undoubtedly that God exists and I know that they cannot understand or accept these things.

[pokemaughan]

Wow, I didn't expect the atheists to dissect this like it's some piece of science.

Go figure.

Metaphor. That's all.

[Lesta]

I have told Christians who refuse to listen to my reasoning that they are close minded, but only because I listen to their reasoning with an open mind.

If an Atheist refuses to listen to the reasoning of a Christian, that Atheist is also close-minded.

However, I think your comparison of 'George' and 'God' is lacking.

If I thought i had a friend named George and I called him all the time while talking to him about my problems, my life and so on...but he never talked back, I wouldn't be so sure he exhisted either.

When I talk to my friends on the phone, they talk to me as well.

Do your friends have to speak audibly to be talking?

Over the phone? Yes.

In person, not so much because I can tell what they're thinking by their reactions to what I say.

[Lesta]

Wow, I didn't expect the atheists to dissect this like it's some piece of science.

Go figure.

Metaphor. That's all.

It wasn't a bad metaphor, to be sure.

It stopped me in my tracks for a minute and I had to read it over.

The only problem with the metaphor is that you compared a human being to God.

I think it would be hard to do a metaphor for God, actually, because of the fact that he IS God.

I do understand what you were trying to get across though, so as I said, it was not a bad metaphor.

[pokemaughan]

Hi Pokemaughan,

But you were making a claim about non-believers. In your analogy the doubter is being a bit obtuse in questioning the existence of George. You might even say he is being irrational in questioning something that can be proven and by analogy you are inferring non-believers are unreasonable. My point was to show that George cannot be equated to God. In showing the many ways that George's physical existence can be demonstrated I highlight that with God it is not nearly so obvious. In fact none of the things we use to show that George exists can be applied to God. The non-believers' doubt is not the same as the fellow who denied George's existence. You and I can have a group discussion with George, we cannot have such a discourse with God. We can record George's image with a digital camera. No one has done that with God. Calling God on the telephone really is only a metaphor; it can't be done. No one can physically show me God. The analogy with George fails and the suggestion that un-believers are being unreasonable fails on this account as well.

Sorry, but if you want to show we are unreasonable then you need a different analogy. Maybe there is one out there, but this one doesn't work.

Hitchey

Honestly, it's like examining the psychological qualities of Barney or examining the motives behind Santa. It was a simple parable as others have said. Not meant to be looked into. I talk to God every day, He talks to me via His Word and answered prayer.

[pokemaughan]

Here's the moral or lesson, for those who are trying too hard:

I'm not open to your views because it's not just facts, its a relationship with a living God.

[fireproof_always]

I tend to shy away from using the term close-minded in regards to atheists because it implies that all atheists are the same way. Just as I am offended by people who call Christians one of the various psuedo-insults such as "Bible-Thumpers" "Holy Rollers" etc etc; I am equally offended by people who say "Atheists/Agnostics/Jews/Muslims/Hindus/whatever are so close minded." It is simply not possible that everyone who believes something fits that bill. There are atheists such as a friend of mine, Kris; or Lesta here, who by discussing Christian beliefs respectfully and honestly prove that there are exceptions, just as not all of us Christians are the holier-than-thou type. One's beliefs are personal, and as long as they agree to respect mine and perhaps allow me to explain my beliefs to them and explain their's to me, then I refuse to say that they are close minded regardless of how adamantly they disbelieve what I believe.

[fireproof_always]

Wow, I didn't expect the atheists to dissect this like it's some piece of science.

Go figure.

Metaphor. That's all.

It wasn't a bad metaphor, to be sure.

It stopped me in my tracks for a minute and I had to read it over.

The only problem with the metaphor is that you compared a human being to God.

I think it would be hard to do a metaphor for God, actually, because of the fact that he IS God.

I do understand what you were trying to get across though, so as I said, it was not a bad metaphor.

I'd be disappointed if someone didn't dissect a metaphor in a discussion like this. Besides, I thought the point was to use science PLUS beliefs to discuss both sides of the divide?? Interestingly, on many of the points in this thread I find myself agreeing with the nonbelievers. Mainly because they're making the points I'm used to making. Case in point, my God is NOT a HUMAN, he is above it. Obviously that's not quite the point they were making, still we both agree that comparing deity to humanity is futile. That's like me saying my Faith is in itself based in Science and therefore I don't need to use logic or reason in my arguments. Physical substance and spiritual/supernatural/magical/etc manifestations/beings are not and will never be possibly connected in any form, metaphor or otherwise (my one personal exception to this is Christ, whom I wholeheartedly believe was fully God and fully man at the same time). The metaphor/parable about this George character, while admittedly a good reference to the atheists who actually say "There CAN'T be a God" is made irrelevant by those who say "Perhaps there is a God, but I need proof." God can only be proven to an individual if he decides to physically manifest his power to that person. Yet he says that we that believe on Faith are more blessed than the ones who saw Christ manifest miracles, because we do not require that definite concrete evidence to serve. I know my God exists, and I will gladly spend time debating it with anyone who desires to respectfully discuss it, yet I will NEVER claim that I can give them proof because I, as a man, cannot. All I can do is state my reasoning and what evidence I have, and hope that I can convince him or her.

[mjrhealth]

Man nice statement, but you see it should be that George comes up to you and says, Hey Poke, why are you so different to others, you never seem to complain, no matter how bad things get, even when trouble comes your way you always seem to be able to maintain a smile, kids seem to love you and seems that you can deal with everyone, noone seems to trouble you. I have never seen anyone like that. Then your response, could be , well I have Jesus living within me, daily I talk to Him, daily i tell Him I love Him and Give all my problems to Him, and He then gives me the grace and patients to se the day through. Then if he reponds , i dont belive in God anyway, then you can say well you tell me how i can do this, in to days world. When you find the answer come back to me, id be glad to hear.

In His love

[Lesta]

Man nice statement, but you see it should be that George comes up to you and says, Hey Poke, why are you so different to others, you never seem to complain, no matter how bad things get, even when trouble comes your way you always seem to be able to maintain a smile, kids seem to love you and seems that you can deal with everyone, noone seems to trouble you. I have never seen anyone like that. Then your response, could be , well I have Jesus living within me, daily I talk to Him, daily i tell Him I love Him and Give all my problems to Him, and He then gives me the grace and patients to se the day through. Then if he reponds , i dont belive in God anyway, then you can say well you tell me how i can do this, in to days world. When you find the answer come back to me, id be glad to hear.

In His love

I'm really confused now.

He was using George as a metaphor for God...but your last statement by George makes him sound like an atheist.

Am I the only one confused?