Bread of Life is Hard to Swallow

[socrates4jesus]

You say that the Catholic Church is telling you that if you do not believe that the bread and wine are actually the body and blood of Christ that you are sinning. Tell me, where does scripture tell us of this sin? Why would Jesus say "in remembrance of Me" if it were Him? And, would Jesus not tell us that it is in fact His body and His blood, so threat it as such?

The issue here is that someone at some time read these words and decided to forget about what Luke said and went only with what Matthew and Mark said, when they said “Take, eat; this is My body.” and left off what was in Luke, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Scripture does not contradict itself, ever. When something seems to be in contradiction, it is us who is in error. Scripture has to harmonize in order for it to be the word of God, so when Matthew and Mark stated that "this is My body", it was symbolizing the bread.

I think the issue here is ambiguity, Light. Please allow me to explain. Matthew records the event this way:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

(Matthew 26)

Notice that he does add the words, "Do this in remembrance of me."

Mark records it this way:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God." When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

(Mark 15)

Again, no mention of the words, "Do this in memory of me." I'm not saying Jesus did not say those words, only suggesting that if this was the whole point of the last supper, Matthew and Mark did not seem to realize it.

Now, you say that the words of Jesus mean this

Take and eat; this is [like] my body.

Catholics tell me that the words of Jesus mean this

Take and eat; this is [really] my body.

So, the words of Jesus, at least in this passage, are ambiguous (that is, they can be understood two different ways).

The only way i can see to resolve this ambiguity is to look elsewhere in the Bible to find an interpretation of Jesus' words. However, please let me know if you see a better way.

Edited March 29, 2009 by socrates4jesus

[socrates4jesus]

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Edited March 29, 2009 by socrates4jesus

[socrates4jesus]

Yes. Do we? No, for we are not perfect.

But, when you and i read

From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

(Matthew 4)

does this mean that Jesus Himself needed to repent of some sin?

No, Jesus was perfect in every way. Jesus is the spotless Lamb given for sacrifice. Jesus is also part of the Godhead, or Trinity, being the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

I wholeheartedly agree! So, do you see, now, that the words, "I am the bread of life," do NOT apply to what Jesus said, but instead, to who Jesus is?

[socrates4jesus]

I think you should get into a good Bible study and maybe use a concordance and a New International Bible (a bit easier than the KJV). The Scripture I quote about the sacrament of Communion is to my understanding and I've only been a Christian for 34 years, so I may have missed something... but...

1 Corinthians 11:24-26 (New International Version)

24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Reading the whole chapters of Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11 may give you a better understanding of the context in which Jesus was speaking.

Please consider the next chapter of 1 Cor. 11, Believer:

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

A Catholic pointed this out to me and asked, "Why did Paul say eating in an unworthy manner a sin against Christ's BODY? If the purpose of communion was merely to remember Christ's sacrifice, then why didn't Paul say it was a sin against Christ's REMEMBRANCE?"

Again, there is ambiguity. If you do not agree, can you at least see why i am confused?

Edited March 29, 2009 by socrates4jesus

[socrates4jesus]

My thought is that i need another, more clear, passage of scripture to interpret Jesus' words in the gospels and in 1 Corinthians 11. What i need is a passage of scripture that is so obviously figurative, there will be no question it is so, or so blatantly literal, that there is no way anyone could see it otherwise.

What are your thoughts, gentlemen?

Edited March 29, 2009 by socrates4jesus

[Believer1997]

I think you should get into a good Bible study and maybe use a concordance and a New International Bible (a bit easier than the KJV). The Scripture I quote about the sacrament of Communion is to my understanding and I've only been a Christian for 34 years, so I may have missed something... but...

1 Corinthians 11:24-26 (New International Version)

24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Reading the whole chapters of Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11 may give you a better understanding of the context in which Jesus was speaking.

Please consider the next chapter of 1 Cor. 11, Believer:

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

A Catholic pointed this out to me and asked, "Why did Paul say eating in an unworthy manner a sin against Christ's BODY? If the purpose of communion was merely to remember Christ's sacrifice, then why didn't Paul say it was a sin against Christ's REMEMBRANCE?"

Again, there is ambiguity. If you do not agree, can you at least see why i am confused?

Well... I think if you are working with a good pastor or bible study teacher all these issues can be quickly explained by a good theologian. Basically, what is being said in this verse is that you should not partake communion if you have unresolved sin in your life - or if you are doing something for which The Holy Spirit is convicting you to address. I personally see no ambiguity in the Bible ... AFTER, I study, read, pray and talk with someone who is knowledgeable. I am sorry you are confused... again, I suggest that you continue to read, study and ask your religious counselor for input.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Socrates,

I believe that your mind is already made up.

However, I would add this; no amount of ritual Saved Abraham.

What communion did he partake of?

Did Abraham receive the Bread of Life?

Scripture states that Abraham was saved by Faith in that he believed God.

Peace,

Dave

[socrates4jesus]

Well... I think if you are working with a good pastor or bible study teacher all these issues can be quickly explained by a good theologian. Basically, what is being said in this verse is that you should not partake communion if you have unresolved sin in your life - or if you are doing something for which The Holy Spirit is convicting you to address. I personally see no ambiguity in the Bible ... AFTER, I study, read, pray and talk with someone who is knowledgeable. I am sorry you are confused... again, I suggest that you continue to read, study and ask your religious counselor for input.

Don't sell yourself short, Believer! You've done extremely well defending what you believe against the Catholics who have confused me. I do understand what you are saying, and why you believe it. I just do not know, for certain, whether what you believe is the truth. Do you at least appreciate why i'm confused, even though you are not?

[Believer1997]

Well... I think if you are working with a good pastor or bible study teacher all these issues can be quickly explained by a good theologian. Basically, what is being said in this verse is that you should not partake communion if you have unresolved sin in your life - or if you are doing something for which The Holy Spirit is convicting you to address. I personally see no ambiguity in the Bible ... AFTER, I study, read, pray and talk with someone who is knowledgeable. I am sorry you are confused... again, I suggest that you continue to read, study and ask your religious counselor for input.

Don't sell yourself short, Believer! You've done extremely well defending what you believe against the Catholics who have confused me. I do understand what you are saying, and why you believe it. I just do not know, for certain, whether what you believe is the truth. Do you at least appreciate why i'm confused, even though you are not?

Oh, I can see that you are confused. I'm not totally sure exactly why - and I'm just as certain that what I believe and have told you is the Spiritual Truth. I wasn't raised as a Catholic, so I don't know what you've been told, but surely you are able to read and disseminate information. It's good you are asking questions, I just do not know how to answer them any differently than I have. Blessings.

[socrates4jesus]

Grace to you,

Socrates,

I believe that your mind is already made up.

However, I would add this; no amount of ritual Saved Abraham.

What communion did he partake of?

Did Abraham receive the Bread of Life?

Scripture states that Abraham was saved by Faith in that he believed God.

Peace,

Dave

You are mistaken, Dave. I tell you the truth, my mind is not made up. What i'm doing here is asking for help. John writes

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

(1 John 4:1)

I've been a Fundamentalist Baptist and an Evangelical for more than two decades, but now i'm not sure what to believe. I'm asking you to help me test the spirits that i've been given to see whether they are true.