Regarding hell as a final destination and other such things...

[carlos123]

Just an introductory note about this thread....

It is meant to allow me and others to continue a discussion on becoming a Christian that started up in another thread. A thread which had to do with a potentiall track writing ministry (http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Overc...op-t102014.html).

So without further ado....here is where we left off in that thread. A fellow member, tryingtounderstand (hi there tryingtounderstand ), said this...

I don't think I have enough posts to start a new thread. I tried and got denied. So that is why I brought it up here plus the theme of this thread had to do with peoples eternal destination. If you can start a new thread then I'll talk about there or here.

I believe in Christ. In fact he is just about the only reason I even have faith. A lot of the Bible just makes me feel depressed, unworthy, and no good. But he gives me hope that just maybe I can be saved through all the mess. A lot of Christians believe that if you just accept and believe Christ then you will be saved. Yes I think that you must accept him and believe but there are many scriptures that make it seem like you still need to do more than that.

example: Many will say to me in that day lord lord..... yet he will not accept them. Matt 7:21-23 So will I or you be one of those who is say lord lord and yet is not be acceptable to him? I feel that I have a good heart and I care for people, ALL people not just Christians and isn't that what we are supposed to feel. Jesus said love your enemy,love your neighbor and be perfect like the Father is perfect by loving everyone. What about the millions in China that were not brought up Christian or in other countries that have other religions? We are lucky to be born here were Christianity is prevalent. So if your born is Iran or China then you are just doomed. There has to be another way God will deal with the nations that are not Christian because it is not fair that just because they are born and raised in a nation that does not know Christ that they should die. Everyone should have a chance to accept Christ and my belief is that God will be just and give them that chance in the resurrection of the dead. The second resurrection that is!

Another problem is how do you convince people that Christ is the way when so many Christians believe differently?Who is right who is wrong? Plus their is much corruption in the churches that even Christ said would happen. He said true Christians would be kicked out and betrayed by fellow Christians! matt 24:9-13

Might biggest and hardest thing to understand is that we are not on a fair and level playing field. Satan has way to much power to influence and corrupt leaving most at a disadvantage. Not only that but we must fight are own sinful inclinations that we were born with too. This is what I mean when I say Christ is the only one that gives me hope because inborn sin and Satan are two powerful things to overcome! I really don't understand why God has given that evil being so much free reign to destroy and deceived his creation. I know he promises to fix everything but why so much suffering and why let such an evil being have so much power to ruin people?

I could go on and on and I sure you will give me some Bible verse that you think will answer all of this but I think it is very complicated and I wonder why is has to be so complicated. You figure if God is love that it would not be so hard and there would not be so much evil and he would want people to come to him and be loved by him. But the world is such a mess under Satan's control and people have been deceived. It just doesn't seem fair.

My favorite verse is this one because it is how it should be. 1 cor 15:22 emphasis on ALL!

I will post my response to what he said later today after I have prayed and thought about what he said above some. If anybody has any input...by all means, speak up

Carlos

[Guest shiloh357]

example: Many will say to me in that day lord lord..... yet he will not accept them. Matt 7:21-23 So will I or you be one of those who is say lord lord and yet is not be acceptable to him?

Context is an all important rule in reading the bible. Going back up to around verse 15, Jesus begins a line of thought that carries down to vv. 21-23 concerning false prophets. Jesus is not talking about Christians. He is talking about false prophets who will point to all the great works they did "in His Name," but Jesus will send them away saying, "I never knew you."

There has to be another way God will deal with the nations that are not Christian because it is not fair that just because they are born and raised in a nation that does not know Christ that they should die.

Actually, there is no unfairness in that at all.

Everyone should have a chance to accept Christ and my belief is that God will be just and give them that chance in the resurrection of the dead.

No, the Bible teaches that when die outside of Christ, the consequence is eternal separation from God and there are no second chances. The resurrection of the dead is not a second chance, but is a resurrection to judgment for those who died outside of Christ.

[Matthitjah]

example: Many will say to me in that day lord lord..... yet he will not accept them. Matt 7:21-23 So will I or you be one of those who is say lord lord and yet is not be acceptable to him?

Context is an all important rule in reading the bible. Going back up to around verse 15, Jesus begins a line of thought that carries down to vv. 21-23 concerning false prophets. Jesus is not talking about Christians. He is talking about false prophets who will point to all the great works they did "in His Name," but Jesus will send them away saying, "I never knew you."

There has to be another way God will deal with the nations that are not Christian because it is not fair that just because they are born and raised in a nation that does not know Christ that they should die.

Actually, there is no unfairness in that at all.

Everyone should have a chance to accept Christ and my belief is that God will be just and give them that chance in the resurrection of the dead.

No, the Bible teaches that when die outside of Christ, the consequence is eternal separation from God and there are no second chances. The resurrection of the dead is not a second chance, but is a resurrection to judgment for those who died outside of Christ.

There was a farmer who had a dog and B-I-N-G-O was his name-O!

Shiloh is spot on my dear friend.

Peace,

Dave

[stacey c]

example: Many will say to me in that day lord lord..... yet he will not accept them. Matt 7:21-23 So will I or you be one of those who is say lord lord and yet is not be acceptable to him?

Context is an all important rule in reading the bible. Going back up to around verse 15, Jesus begins a line of thought that carries down to vv. 21-23 concerning false prophets. Jesus is not talking about Christians. He is talking about false prophets who will point to all the great works they did "in His Name," but Jesus will send them away saying, "I never knew you."

There has to be another way God will deal with the nations that are not Christian because it is not fair that just because they are born and raised in a nation that does not know Christ that they should die.

Actually, there is no unfairness in that at all.

Everyone should have a chance to accept Christ and my belief is that God will be just and give them that chance in the resurrection of the dead.

No, the Bible teaches that when die outside of Christ, the consequence is eternal separation from God and there are no second chances. The resurrection of the dead is not a second chance, but is a resurrection to judgment for those who died outside of Christ.

There was a farmer who had a dog and B-I-N-G-O was his name-O!

Shiloh is spot on my dear friend.

Peace,

Dave

Absolutely!!

Doesn't the Bible also state, can't think of the scripture off hand someone else may know where it is, that God will give all the chance to recieve the gosple before His return so non are without excuse?

[carlos123]

Hi tryingtounderstand,

I believe in Christ. In fact he is just about the only reason I even have faith. A lot of the Bible just makes me feel depressed, unworthy, and no good. But he gives me hope that just maybe I can be saved through all the mess. A lot of Christians believe that if you just accept and believe Christ then you will be saved. Yes I think that you must accept him and believe but there are many scriptures that make it seem like you still need to do more than that.

There are a number of things in what you said above tryingtounderstand that are well...a bit confusing...perhaps even contradictory.

You say "I believe in Christ" but also "just maybe I can be saved through all the mess" and "you must accept him and believe but there are many scriptures that make it seem like you need to do more than that.".

So I think the first thing that needs to be determined is whether or not you are truly a Christian tryingtounderstand. I do not mean to discount anything you said but these areas of confusion or seeming contradiction need to be settled or worked through before we can effectively go on to the rest. One other thing tryingtounderstand...it will take continuing courage for you to expose what you think and your concerns so openly as you have before everyone here. I respect the courage you have shown. Truly.

But if you ever get to the point where you want a break from public input on what you say...please know that you can DM me or others here to discuss some aspects of your concerns in a more private way...okay?

If I may ask a couple of questions of you based on what you said above?

What do you think the word "believe" as in "I believe in Christ" means? Can anyone just believe and that's it...they are a Christian?

What do you think Jesus did on the cross? You will probably say that He died for our sins. If that is so...what does that mean to you? What does it mean that He died for our sins. What difference does that make for you, for me, and anyone else? Practically I mean. What does the concept that Jesus died for our sins mean practically in our lives?

Thanks.

Carlos

[OneLight]

I don't think I have enough posts to start a new thread. I tried and got denied. So that is why I brought it up here plus the theme of this thread had to do with peoples eternal destination. If you can start a new thread then I'll talk about there or here.

I believe in Christ. In fact he is just about the only reason I even have faith. 1. A lot of the Bible just makes me feel depressed, unworthy, and no good. But he gives me hope that just maybe I can be saved through all the mess. A lot of Christians believe that if you just accept and believe Christ then you will be saved. 2. Yes I think that you must accept him and believe but there are many scriptures that make it seem like you still need to do more than that.

example: Many will say to me in that day lord lord..... yet he will not accept them. Matt 7:21-23 So will I or you be one of those who is say lord lord and yet is not be acceptable to him? I feel that I have a good heart and I care for people, ALL people not just Christians and isn't that what we are supposed to feel. Jesus said love your enemy,love your neighbor and be perfect like the Father is perfect by loving everyone. What about the millions in China that were not brought up Christian or in other countries that have other religions? We are lucky to be born here were Christianity is prevalent. 3. So if your born is Iran or China then you are just doomed. There has to be another way God will deal with the nations that are not Christian because it is not fair that just because they are born and raised in a nation that does not know Christ that they should die. Everyone should have a chance to accept Christ and my belief is that God will be just and give them that chance in the resurrection of the dead. The second resurrection that is!

4. Another problem is how do you convince people that Christ is the way when so many Christians believe differently?Who is right who is wrong? Plus their is much corruption in the churches that even Christ said would happen. He said true Christians would be kicked out and betrayed by fellow Christians! matt 24:9-13

Might biggest and hardest thing to understand is that we are not on a fair and level playing field. 5. Satan has way to much power to influence and corrupt leaving most at a disadvantage. Not only that but we must fight are own sinful inclinations that we were born with too. This is what I mean when I say Christ is the only one that gives me hope because inborn sin and Satan are two powerful things to overcome! I really don't understand why God has given that evil being so much free reign to destroy and deceived his creation. I know he promises to fix everything but why so much suffering and why let such an evil being have so much power to ruin people?

I could go on and on and I sure you will give me some Bible verse that you think will answer all of this but I think it is very complicated and I wonder why is has to be so complicated. You figure if God is love that it would not be so hard and there would not be so much evil and he would want people to come to him and be loved by him. But the world is such a mess under Satan's control and people have been deceived. It just doesn't seem fair.

My favorite verse is this one because it is how it should be. 1 cor 15:22 emphasis on ALL!

I have numbered the original post and underlined the sentence I am addressing to make it easier to reply.

1. As we read scripture, we are also taking a look at ourselves. The Holy Spirit has been given to us to convict us of sin and to teach us about God. There are many areas in everyone's life that need changing, even those who have been following Christ for some time. Yes, we are sinners that are unworthy of Him, but He died to save us from our sins and ourselves. What makes you feel unworthy is scripture is Him showing that part of us that IS unworthy, but the good news is that the Holy Spirit can change that part of our life to be more like Jesus.

2. Accepting Jesus is salvation. That is the end to it, but there is more to do, so you are correct. What we have to do, which does not determine our salvation, is what ever He bring to us to do. We are to study His word, allow Him to change us and use us for His purpose. Telling someone about Jesus and the kingdom is one thing we all should do. Helping the poor, the needy, the sick, the elderly, or anyone who needs help is another. The list goes on, but we have to make sure it is Christ who is the lead in all things. Proverbs 3:5-6 tells us Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. This scripture alone tells us that if we truly trust in Jesus, and not ourselves, look for guidance in Him, that He will show us the way.

3. No, where you are born has nothing to do if you can be saved or not. Who you have faith in does. There are those in China and Iran who believe in Jesus as their savior that will be with Him when they die. There are those in the US that will not be because they did not accept Jesus as their savior.

4. Those who call themselves Christians and do not preach salvation through Jesus are not Christian, but false teachers. wolves in sheep clothing.

5. Satan has only what a person gives him. He has no power over anyone who does not give him any. He would love to have you believe that he does, but he is a lier. He had to go before God to get permission to test Job. Remember, 1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

The "all" in the below scripture are all who are in Christ, not those who refuse Him and His salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (New King James Version)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

[carlos123]

That's very gracious of you to take the time to number and respond to the points raised by tryingtounderstand OneLight! Thanks.

Carlos