I don't like to go to church

[paul1149]

Alan,

Please understand that I do not deny the five-fold ministry Ascension Gifts to the church or the authority they wield, nor am I aware of any home group advocate who does. The question is how those offices are to wield that authority. I believe, first of all, in the plurality of eldership, and I believe the leaders are more guides than being constantly at the center of attention, let alone authoritarianistic.

As for Mat. 18, you've taken a strict interpretation of the authority of gathered brothers. 16:19 talks about the church binding and loosing. Some have said that is primarily about doctrine, but I don't restrict it to that. We are in spiritual warfare and binding and loosing applies there as well. In chapter 18, v18 clearly refers to church discipline, but doesn't v19 go further, or was He only emphasizing v18?

[Romans 14]

Romans 14,

RSV stands for Revised Standard Version of the bible. If you looked up the verses I cited in a version other than the RSV, you might not get a good understanding of the inner and outer temples.

I bought my bible 25 years ago. Today's bibles often have been re-worded to be politically correct for sales/marketing purposes (they have been watered down, corrupted), which is probably why you haven't been able to clearly understand about the "three days" temple and each of us being "A temple" also.

Jesus said that He established (in "three days") the temple (that we should worship IN) and that "He was speaking of the temple of His body" (I think this is very clear that HIS OWN BODY will spiritually contain all of the true "Godly spiritual" worshippers, there are many "humanly spiritual" worshippers that will not "enter by the door").

John 4:23

"true worshippers" (not ALL worshippers are TRUE worshippers).

We are also told that we are God's temple...

1 Corinthians 3:16

"you are God's temple"

..and that we each are a temple of God's spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19

"your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you".

The only way that both of these can be true is that we are the inner temple and Jesus is the outer temple. This is similar to the Israelites that travelled in the desert for 40 years. Since Jesus had not come to earth yet, the Israelites did not have Jesus as their SABBATH REST...

Hebrews 4:3

"they shall never enter my rest"....even though the works that Jesus did ("works of God") were finished since the beginning of the world.

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PRIDE (VAIN ego, vanity) is a very strong motivator of human nature, and we hardly ever notice how it interferes with sincerity and humility. Whenever there are people around us who will "approve" of what we say in prayer or how we worship, the PRIDE of knowing that they will approve interferes with a SINCERE devotion/relationship and also interferes with genuine humility (regardless of our good intentions).

I realize that complying with the traditions of man seems innocent and there are no bad intentions or offense meant against God, but we must always value our personal relationship to The Lord FIRST AND FOREMOST. Our personal relationship/devotion must remain TRULY "personal" (and TWO WAY so that He can also have a personal relationship with YOU, He "yearns jealously", James 4:5).

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Ephesians 4:5

"one lord, one faith, one baptism".

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I have been Christian for 25 years (I am an experienced Christian, not a "babe in Christ"),...

1 Corinthians 3:1

"But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ".

Young, inexperienced Christians (babes in Christ) need "training" in the "doctrine of Christ" and then they should "move on to maturity" in their relationship/devotion...

2 Timothy 3:16

"All SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for TRAINING in righteousness".

Titus 2:12

"training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions".

Hebrews 6:1

"Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity".

Very often, young inexperienced Christians rely on the pastors, scholars, etc. to explain the "depths" of God to them, but even the sincere and loving pastors have always been distracted from knowing as much as they should in order to spread the genuine truth of scripture (many are very well intentioned, but have been GROSSLY irresponsible to the Body Of Christ).

As a Christian grows and becomes more experienced (moves on to maturity), God will teach them the "depths of God" and they will acknowledge "anointing" (the "anointing" will be their spiritual teacher)...

1 John 2:27

"the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie".

We should ALWAYS remember this one verse and ponder it, because, no matter what we have been taught, the bible (the word "bible" is not in scripture) IS NOT an "authority"..

Matthew 28:18

"ALL AUTHORITY"...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/tran...;t=RSV&sf=5

I think this has kind of gotten off track, because the disagreement went from whether or not we should attend church to proving who is right or not. I don

[OneLight]

I can see by your replies that we have more in common with concerns then not. As I said in my first post, history has shown that there is a danger when someone without Gods leading starts a church. These are always those who are discontent with the on goings of the established church and believe that they have a truth that the churches do not have.

I watched all 6 videos you linked to. Everything they stated about the condition of church , in my opinion, concerns the traditional denominations. I have found other non-denominational churches that are not like this. But one in particular I know of is headed toward the Emergent Church because of the new freedom they found.

As for the scripture we have been discussing, Jesus was speaking to only those of His inner group, those whom He later became His disciples, not everyone that believed His message. With such power, comes responsibility, and this responsibility is not given to those who are no mature. Saying that, this thread is getting side tracked with this discussion.

About the churches in China. Yes, it is a true blessing that they are receiving! God is truly working there, no doubt. If you look at the differences with the churches, you will have to agree that due to the constant fear of persecution, they are all about truth, for they do not have to comfort, nor the ability, to let their guard down like we do and have in the US. Persecution does a lot for faith today as it did in the beginning for the church age. I sometimes wonder if it is a curse that we have been so free that we have no pressing reason to ensure that what we believe is the real truth, except for God Himself. I am sure that if the US Christians were under such persecution, we would hold the truth much more closer then most do now. There would be no fence sitting and only the true Christian would dare to enter a home church, or any church that is against the law.

As with millions of fellow brothers and sister, I also feel in my spirit that how the church is now is not what it should be. I have debated about denominations in the past because of the division, but it was made clear to me that there are those who see this division as only slight difference in faith and they do no harm. That only confirmed why there are so many denominations. Saying that, I have also wanted to find a group of believers that can gather as the first church did, but the difference is not to separate with the traditional church, but to bring this to them and help them heal. The more people see the fruits of a group, the more they want what they have. Isolating themselves from the church, as it is now, would not allow them to see such a change unless they happen to cross paths somewhere along the line.

God Bless,

Alan

[paul1149]

Alan, thanks for watching those videos, and for a stimulating exchange. As for the applicability of those Matthian verses, I'll go with the binding and loosing and the power of agreement being for all believers in their appropriate sphere, but I appreciate concerns about abuse.

China is very exciting. I think we in the West suffer from a very long, unfortunate Constantinian hangover. I also think that we will soon awaken from it.

I see a lot of the Spirit causing us to rise above denominationalism (while at the same time there is a serious liberal/conservative schism). I like what you said about the home church movement adding to, rather than subtracting from, the Body at large. It reminds me of the old prophesy concerning the Pentecostal movement, that it would spread out to all the churches, becoming a blessing that unified. And despite its divisive beginnings, I think that's exactly what is happening, and just in time.

I've always been attracted to the model suggested in Acts 2, temple worship plus home groups. Later, when the persecution came, the early Christians abandoned the temple part. I think there's a lot of correspondence there to what we've been discussing.

If you are further interested in how the home groups are dealing with some of these issues, I found a good series of audio at http://www.ntrf.org/audio/index.php.

bb,

p.

[OneLight]

I has been a please for me also. I look forward to more simulation discussions with you in the future! I will check out the link, thanks

God Bless,

Alan

[tjhawks1]

"With such power, comes responsibility,"

Thanks uncle Ben.(spiderman quote) But seriously thank both of you that was a very stimulating conversation. I hope you both see that you are basicly saying the same thing. There is concern for both church and home groups. Neither is better than the other. They both if properly run can have incredible results and be blessings for all involved. I for one am glad this topic got a little sidetracked.

Edited April 24, 2009 by tjhawks1