Homosexuality and evolution

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hi Shiloh,

Thanks for the debate. There's finally a post that I can comfortably not respond to. There's nothing wildly new or outrageous in this comment, except the repetition of the arguments that we will never agree on. Needless to say, I cannot agree with you on this (of course, you cannot agree with me either). All the best for the future

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh,

Thanks for the debate. There's finally a post that I can comfortably not respond to. There's nothing wildly new or outrageous in this comment, except the repetition of the arguments that we will never agree on. Needless to say, I cannot agree with you on this (of course, you cannot agree with me either). All the best for the future

It's not me you are disagreeing with. God has already given us the truth on the matter. I just presented the truth about sin as laid out in Scripture. It's too bad that you are unable receive biblical truth.

Your responses remind me of what Paul said:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1 Corinthians 2:14)

[ParanoidAndroid]

It's not me you are disagreeing with. God has already given us the truth on the matter. I just presented the truth about sin as laid out in Scripture. It's too bad that you are unable receive biblical truth.

Ahh, the appeal to authority. Funny that I was thinking the same thing about your argument/s. It's too bad that you think I am unable to receive biblical truth.

[Guest shiloh357]

It's not me you are disagreeing with. God has already given us the truth on the matter. I just presented the truth about sin as laid out in Scripture. It's too bad that you are unable receive biblical truth.

Ahh, the appeal to authority. Funny that I was thinking the same thing about your argument/s. It's too bad that you think I am unable to receive biblical truth.

Unwilling is probably the better word. Your liberal approach to the Bible means that you have to reject it as the holy, infallible, inerrant, wholly inspired word of God. So it is not surprising that when presented with truth that you would reject it like you reject other parts of the Bible that don't like. Christians believe the Bible. They allow it to shape their beliefs. They don't brush it aside in order to make excuses and justify sin the way you do.

You will never let the Bible get in the way of what you believe.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Unwilling is probably the better word. Your liberal approach to the Bible means that you have to reject it as the holy, infallible, inerrant, wholly inspired word of God. So it is not surprising that when presented with truth that you would reject it like you reject other parts of the Bible that don't like. Christians believe the Bible. They allow it to shape their beliefs. They don't brush it aside in order to make excuses and justify sin the way you do.

You will never let the Bible get in the way of what you believe.

And with that I will bow out of the debate - it can only go downhill from here. I have never made an excuse for sin in my life (Christian life, at least - I haven't always been a follower of God), and I regularly need to change my views to fit in with the Bible (not the other way around). All your claims to the contrary are just that - your claims. God will be my Judge, as is right and proper. God knows the Bible better than you or I combined (he did inspire it, after all) - he'll be able to shed further light on the issue.

[Guest HIS girl]

Unwilling is probably the better word. Your liberal approach to the Bible means that you have to reject it as the holy, infallible, inerrant, wholly inspired word of God. So it is not surprising that when presented with truth that you would reject it like you reject other parts of the Bible that don't like. Christians believe the Bible. They allow it to shape their beliefs. They don't brush it aside in order to make excuses and justify sin the way you do.

You will never let the Bible get in the way of what you believe.

And with that I will bow out of the debate - it can only go downhill from here. I have never made an excuse for sin in my life (Christian life, at least - I haven't always been a follower of God), and I regularly need to change my views to fit in with the Bible (not the other way around). All your claims to the contrary are just that - your claims. God will be my Judge, as is right and proper. God knows the Bible better than you or I combined (he did inspire it, after all) - he'll be able to shed further light on the issue.

What planet are you on PA?????

Shiloh has backed up his responses with Scripture every time!!.......you amaze me.....

[Guest shiloh357]

And with that I will bow out of the debate -

I thought you alread did.

I have never made an excuse for sin in my life (Christian life, at least - I haven't always been a follower of God),

I didn't say you were making excuses for sin in your life. I said you were making excuses for the sins of those who continue to live in their homosexual bent instead of turning it over to Christ.

All your claims to the contrary are just that - your claims.

My claims are based on the information you have provided to date. I am going off information you have provided about your beliefs. I am not the one claiming the Bible contains misleading and inccorrect information. That is your position. I have provided several Scriptures which you chose to ignore and refused to address. It was not my claims, but the Bible's claims I am making. Acting as if what I was saying was just something I pulled out of the air requires you to sacrifice your integrity in the light of the Scriptures I produced.

God will be my Judge, as is right and proper. God knows the Bible better than you or I combined (he did inspire it, after all) - he'll be able to shed further light on the issue.

God has already shed all the light on the subject we need. The problem is that you reject the Bible in favor of your liberal bent.

I am not judging YOU. I am judging what God has already judged. God judges homsexuality wrong in every sphere of human existence it can exist in, mind, body, and heart. I am judging your position which is one of compromise and contradiction. You are the one trying to castthe homosexual bent as being as natural an unsinful as being hetrosexual in clear contradition to God's Word.

You cannot claim the Bible to God-inspired on the one-hand but discard its words when they get in the way of what you want to believe on the other. Doesn't work that way.

[ParanoidAndroid]

What planet are you on PA?????

Shiloh has backed up his responses with Scripture every time!!.......you amaze me.....

Shiloh makes the claim that the homosexual urge is a perversion of God-given heterosexual urge, and hence it is sin to even have such. I have asked consistently for passages to back this point up. His only response has been the myriad of passages that state "sin begins in the heart". I already agree with this statement - sin begins in the heart. The prejudice towards homosexuality is clear here. The Bible condemns the homosexual lifestyle as wrong. I do not disagree with this. I am not making excuses for homosexuals to engage in whatever acts they want.

The act is wrong. The lustful desire to commit that act is wrong. On these I agree. I say the same for heterosexual sexual immorality. I cannot, however, agree that even the urge is sinful - nothing Shiloh has said about that has contained anything except his own views (zero scriptural backing). His only views that are backed up by the Bible (sin begins in the heart), I already agree with him on that one.

What amazes me, His Girl, is the fundamentalists on this site who take their prejudices and cannot or will not separate their own belief from what the Bible actually says.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I didn't say you were making excuses for sin in your life. I said you were making excuses for the sins of those who continue to live in their homosexual bent instead of turning it over to Christ.

I have never said that it is ok to have homosexual sex or dwell lustfully on homosexual thoughts. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I have only ever said that a homosexual who wishes to live as a Christian must choose to forsake that way of life, choose to forsake the sex and say no to having lustful thoughts. This is the same that I ask of myself as an unmarried heterosexual - no more and no less.

You are taking it an extra step and stating that even the urges are sinful perversions - and you have yet to back that up with scripture. When I first asked you for said scriptures, you fobbed it off by claiming all sin begins in the heart - and though I agree with that sentiment, I do not see the logic that leaps from there to "homosexual urges must be perversions, but heterosexual urges are natural an therefore ok to have as long as it doesn't move into lust".

My claims are based on the information you have provided to date. I am going off information you have provided about your beliefs. I am not the one claiming the Bible contains misleading and inccorrect information. That is your position. I have provided several Scriptures which you chose to ignore and refused to address. It was not my claims, but the Bible's claims I am making. Acting as if what I was saying was just something I pulled out of the air requires you to sacrifice your integrity in the light of the Scriptures I produced.

Which passages were they? Those being the "sin begins in the heart" passages - why would I need to refute them when I agree with that position! Sin begins with the heart. If there were another passage you quoted that referred to homosexual urges being a perversion of the God-given heterosexual feelings, then please share them again - I must have missed it the first time around.

You are mixing up your own personal opinion (homosexual urges are a perversion) and passing them off as God's word - pulling it out of the air, as you so eloquently put it. The problem is that the view you are arguing has been so ingrained into your mind that you cannot separate what you believe from what the Bible actually says, and so believe that you have supported your view when all you have really done is side-step consistently around the question as you go back to the "sin begins in the heart" argument (which as I said already - I agree with you on).

[Guest shiloh357]

I have never said that it is ok to have homosexual sex or dwell lustfully on homosexual thoughts. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I have only ever said that a homosexual who wishes to live as a Christian must choose to forsake that way of life, choose to forsake the sex and say no to having lustful thoughts. This is the same that I ask of myself as an unmarried heterosexual - no more and no less.

Here is where your argument breaks down. You think it is okay to have homosexual feelings as long as they don't fall over into lust. That is where you are wrong. As far as you are concerned, having homosexual desires is no different than having hetrosexual desires provided neither fall over into lust. You are essentially treating both types of desire morally equivalent so long they both remain within those parameters.

The problem with that is that there is no point at which homosexual desire fits within God's framework of a biblically based, Godly, Christian frame of reference. So having the desire on ANY level goes against God's design. Thus it is a perverted expression of that design. I realize you bristle every time I say it is a perversion, but that is what it is.

We use money to purchase legal goods and services to maintain a quality and standard of living. But if I use money to take out a contract on someone's life, then I am no longer using money for its intended purpose. It is a perversion of what moeny is for. Anytime you employ something outside the purpose it was designed for, it is by definition, a perversion or perverted expression of the original intent of the designer.

God designed men to desire women and for women to desire men. That is the ONLY type of sexual desire that is sanctified in the Bible. It is not a sin for man to be sexually attracted to a woman. As long as he has a pulse, the attraction will be there, the same with women. However, it is wrong for a man to entertain sexual thoughts about a woman he is not married to. It is wrong for him to entertain any thoughts of her that include desiring relations outside God's marital prescription.

Homosexuality is different, though. Homosexual attraction does not fit into the biblical framework at any level. Even if we are referring to simple "attraction" it is still a sin.

As far as the Christian life is concerned. It is impossible to live as a Christian, trying to suppress sin, no matter what the sin is. God does not ask us to suppress it. Homosexual attraction, like any sin, such as sexual addiction, porn addiction, or maybe someone who is wrestling with adulterous attraction to a married person, all of these sins are things from which a person must be delivered spiritually.

The Christian life is not about behavior modifcation or reform. It is about a spiritual transformation where a person is given new heart and a new set of desires. We have people walking around still struggling with all kinds of sins, trying to suppress the sin in their lives. A lot of people mentally assent to the Christian "religion" but have not fully surrendered themselves over to Christ. Their lives are a living contradiction. What they need is a real touch from Jesus to be fully delivered from the sin in their lives.

You are taking it an extra step and stating that even the urges are sinful perversions - and you have yet to back that up with scripture. When I first asked you for said scriptures, you fobbed it off by claiming all sin begins in the heart - and though I agree with that sentiment, I do not see the logic that leaps from there to "homosexual urges must be perversions, but heterosexual urges are natural an therefore ok to have as long as it doesn't move into lust".

Homosexual feelings (no such thing as homosexual "urge") as I stated do not fit within a biblical paradigm. Thus they do not come from God. In fact, given the fact that God hates homosexuality, then he hates the feelings attached to it.

God hates murder, and he hates the motives and feelings that prompt it. God hates ALL sins and He hates the feelings, or motives that prompt those sins, and that is a principle I have shown that the Bible clearly lays out.

Homosexual feelings and Hetrosexual feelings are not morally equivalent. It is a sin to be attracted to the member of the same gender, whether you act on it or not, and whether it falls into lust or not.

Which passages were they? Those being the "sin begins in the heart" passages - why would I need to refute them when I agree with that position!

Those passages refute your nonsensical position that simply having homsexual feelsings are not sinful. The Bible does NOT say that it only becomes a sin when it turns into raging lust. You are trying draw a line that the Bible does not draw.

You are mixing up your own personal opinion (homosexual urges are a perversion) and passing them off as God's word

This only shows just how shallow your handling of Scripture is.

I have already stated numerous times (and YOU agreed with this initially. You said you "could not agree more") that the commandments in the Bible are paradigms for behavior. That means that since EVERY sin a person can commit is not covered in the Bible, we can extrapolate from what the Bible DOES say to address those things that the Bible does not address directly.

You are asking me for a verse that spefically states that "homosexual urges are a perversion." Well, I have already admitted that I do not have a Scripture that say that in so many words. But I also stated that I do not HAVE to have one. I simply need to look at how God addresses other forms of sexual impurity. I look at the issues the Bible does address and I can apply that to homosexuality. The principle that the Bible lays out is one of purity in mind and heart. Meaning that there should be no desires of any kind in us that could prompt sin. Since homosexuality is a sin, then any feelings connected with homosexuality are equally as sinful.

What you are evidently not able to comprehend is that when God commands against a particular act, he is by extension commanding us not to have anything in our heart that would prompt that act in the first place. Thus, a commandment against the homosexual "act" is also, by extension, a commandment not to have or entertain any feelings that come with it or would prompt you in that direction.

The problem is that the view you are arguing has been so ingrained into your mind that you cannot separate what you believe from what the Bible actually says,

No, you have it backwards. I have the Bible so ingrained in me that I already know the truth. This is not "opinion" I am offering. I am approaching this from a biblical paradigm and the Bible is clear about this. You simply cannot bring yourself to believe the Bible.