Alcohol

[Axxman]

axxman, if you have an ax to grind with me, (pun intended!) please take it to me in private. don't assume i don't care just because you don't agree with me. i didn't intend to be offensive to anyone. i was sticking up for the guy because i truly do not believe he was intending to, as charitow put it, twist scripture according to his "agenda".

LadyC...lol

Someday I'm gonna meet you and I'm gonna give you a big 'ol hug to let you know that words we exchange on a forum are not affecting my 'real' world. You and I have been over this topic about a dozen times now and we ALWAYS give each other grief.

I was actually being humorous/bratty in that post and once again I made the seriously mistake of thinking that would translate to everyone else. (I keep forgetting to use emoticons too )

Sorry...I have NO problems with you and I wasn't seriously offended I promise. totally my bad...

[Guest LadyC]

that's ok, axxman, my own post had come across as bratty and UNhumourous! so it's still good that you pointed it out!

yeah, we do tend to give each other grief at times don't we? but once in a while, we actually agree on a subject, and those are kodak moments!

[Axxman]

Look at Numbers. Here wine is shown to be indeed fermented, not grape juice, which I can find no mention of in all of scripture. But also it is shown that yes there are times that God commanded people to abstain from all wine, but as shown below there were times that it would be allowed. But there are hundreds of references to wine in both the New and Old testaments. The substance was as common as grain and often used as barter or for offerings and sacrifice. But scripture has been consistent from the beginning never drink to get drunk that is not the purpose of wine and it is a sin to do so.

Smalcald...just because ONE scripture points out that the "wine" in that reference was ferminted...doesn't make all wine ferminted.

Even in the English language the word "wine" was defined as ferminted or unferminted until the 1950's. It has been that way throughout history in many, many cultures. In the bible it is the same way, the word "wine" can be either/or. In the case of the scripture in Numbers the author defined specifically that he was referring to alcoholic wine and grape juice.

Ironically...in this case the author chose to use the word "yayin" to denote the ferminted wine in this case. "Yayin" is definitely a generic term and happens to be the same word he used for the wine vinegar in the same sentence. Now here comes the ironic part...the word he used for grape juice is "mishrah" and it is defined as juice in the bible...but "mishrah" is also a liquor. So we have words that could be translated juice in other contexts being used to mean ferminted drink...and a word that can be liquor, used to describe juice.

[Servant54]

Quote....

"Titus 1:7

Since an overseer[a] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain."

----------------------

This was quoted earlier as a proof that we are only commanded not to be drunk, for the scripture teaches an elder/overseer is not to be drunk.

This is a poor translation..think about it..are we ALL not to be drunk?

The actual Greek found in two scripture is "given to wine" or "alone side of wine"

The Greek indicates an elder is not supposed to drink..it is a qualification we all are to aspire to. Amen?

Now in Asia Minor where this was to take place you had a very worldly crowd getting saved and so they would get saved and still be drinkers and getting drunk, but we see eventually they were to become "elder material" even if they never became an elder. Amen?

++++++++

Again a exhortation to not murder in scripture does not mean we can be mean spirited or say hate..just like an exhortation to not be drunk does not mean we can drink. One does not negate the other.

Have a great day........

Edited May 12, 2009 by Servant54

[artsylady]

Isaiah 25:6

6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare

a feast of rich food for all peoples,

a banquet of aged wine

[Guest LadyC]

hi artsy! i haven't seen you in forever! how are things in your part of the world? are you doing well? staying away from moldy grapejuice?

[Axxman]

Isaiah 25:6

6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare

a feast of rich food for all peoples,

a banquet of aged wine

[redwing]

You be the judge. Read the following.

http://www.spiritualperspectives.org/Alcohol.htm

[artsylady]

Things are great Lady C, especially since I decided to abstain from moldy old grape juice!

Taking a look at isaiah 25 it is QUITE clear that a ton of metaphors are in use...it is actually very poetic and victorious writing.

Okay then, do you think wine in this context here is portrayed in a bad light or a good light?

Here it is again.

6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare

a feast of rich food for all peoples,

a banquet of aged wine

[artsylady]

A few more for Axxman. Sorry, it wouldn't let me do so many quotes.

Hosea 4:11

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

Hosea 4:10-12 (in Context) Hosea 4 (Whole Chapter)

Wine or grapejuice and why? Notice the word 'new"? Do you think this means grape juic can be bad?

Joel 1:5

Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

Wine or grapejuice? Notice the word new?

Acts 2:13

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Wine or grapejuice?

I can look at it rationally in an either/or scenario and pick what makes the most sense in terms of the Saviour of the World

I can look at it completely differently in terms of the savior of the world. Do you really think they were talking about saving the best grape juice? Honesty?

The issue isn't that we pick and choose where to make it ferminted or not...the issue is that many people see the word "wine" and they instantly assume it means ferminted. When you get passed that...the bible starts to make alot more sense (to me anyways) on this topic.

Yes, because wine means wine. it doesn't mean grapejuice. Given the context, there is NO evidence to suggest wine ever means grape juice.

Even new wine can be bad? Come on and quit the mental gymnastics here. lol. WE see a lot of references to 'wine or strong drink' or 'wine and beer'.

Even at 3 percent alcohol, that's equivalent to a lite cooler.

Did you ever wonder, with about 230 references to the word wine why did God not make it obvious that if He wanted us not to touch it, why, with soooo many mentions, did he not even mention that we should abstain? Why not make it obvious like He did with John the Baptist or Samson?