Alcohol

[darkest_red]

RED SAID....

But what is the harm in just having one or two? On the rare occasions I do drink, I will usually have either a JD or Jim Beam and coke or a rum and coke...I know my limit and do not go past it (not even close) so what's the problem with that?

+++++++++++

I say...

Why do you do this on rare occasions?

Er.... because I like the taste. I don't drink anything I don't like the taste of and I don't drink anything just because someone else does or because its "cool" and I certainly don't drink to get drunk (in fact, most of my colleagues at work do exactly that most weekends and, despite how anti-social it looks, I politely turn down their invites out because I do not like to spend my evenings with people who are drinking just for the sake of it). If having one or two drinks ocassionally makes me a terrible person...then I guess I'm a terrible person.

Like I have said before..if say you are over fifty and a mature Xian perhaps there would be little wrong with you drinking one drink.

But drinking that one drink you become a drinker. When it is time to vote or give an opinion I see these older Xians holding the door open for younger Xians to enter the realm of becoming a drinker. Would you offer a drink to a younger Xian, his first drink on his 21 birthday? Would you feel you made the wrong choice that night if you later found out he became a drunk at 26 or 45 and killed himself in a car wreck?

So by buying him one drink on his 21st, I would then be responsible for his decision making for the rest of his life? Is that what you're saying? If I brought someone a pack of crayons when they were 5, would it then be my fault if they used those crayons to draw on someone's elses work when they were 10? If I bought someone a frying pan when they were 25, would it then be my fault if they hit someone over the head with it when they were 50?

I'm not buying into that....you make your own decisions. You are responsible for your own actions. If you make a bad decision, it is up to you to live with the consequences...be it drugs, alcohol or anything else. There is way too much scapegoating around these days.

And honestly, I don't see what difference it makes whether your 25 or 50. As long as you're not drinking illegally (which I am not), I don't see how it could be wrong for one person to have a drink but not for another unless they feel convicted about it.

My christian uncle only bought a 6 pack of beer every other week all through the 1940's,50's and 60's. Later in his life he began to drink a little more and a little more until he and my aunt died drunks. He lost his salvation. He did not even want to talk about God in his retired years.

I will bet if someone could have shown my uncle what would have been the end result of his life when he was saved and young, he would have quit drinking immediately and never touched a drop.

Who is to say someone is not an alcoholic just waiting to have something happen to a point where they fall into drunkenness.

Is this going to happen to you? Probably not...but if it could what odds would get you not to take another drink 2 to 1, 10 to 1, 100 to 1? And what about that kid you told yesterday that it was ok to have a cold one now and then? 2 to 1, 10 to1, 100 to 1?

Like I said, I very rarely drink...probably only or two drinks every couple of months or so, usually not even that, so it would take very little to make me stop. That said, you will not make me feel bad for having an occassional drink because I honestly do not see anything wrong with it

RED SAID....

I'm sorry, have I missed something? I don't think anyone on this board would be encouraging drink-driving. And it doesn't what the person's religion is, no one should be drinking and driving. Faith has nothing to do with it.

I agree with you no one here would be encouraging drink-driving, but maybe it would be good to have the facts to be able to discourage it. Amen?

I will bet more than one person here has kids, or unsaved friends who drink and drive etc.

I don't think anyone here would not be aware of the dangers of drink-driving. In fact, I don't believe anyone old enough to drive would not be aware of the dangers of drink-driving. I'm afraid I don't really see what faith has to do with drink-driving.

Darkest Red, my drink when I get seriously drunk has always been JD straight up with a water chaser. I'm rather hardcore about my drinking, but lately I've discovered that I would even drink wine---which is something I hate with a passion---to get drunk. I think that, if given the opportunity and the chutzpah to do it, I'd even drink rubbing alcohol to get drunk (which I happen to know that Kitty Dukakis, the former First Lady of Massachusetts, did on a regular basis. So did Betty Ford.)

Fact is, if you KNOW you can't do it, and you do it anyway, to you it is sin. (James 4:17, my version).

a.

Anita, I completely understand and respect your decision not to drink. However, I can't see that having a JD and coke (and I don't drink it straight because I don't like it straight, and the only time I have wine is a sip at communion) has ever harmed me...everything in moderation. If you know you can't stop at one, then I agree, it is absolutely in your best interests to avoid it entirely, but I am perfectly happy to stop at one and therefore do not feel that I am doing anything wrong by occassionally having a JD and coke or whatever.

Let's be careful to not use blanket statements. There are people who can drink and still live a Christian life while there are those, like me, who can not. Scripture tells us not to get drunk on wine or strong drink, but to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Scripture also tells us a little wine is good for the stomach, if a person is having stomach issues, but it is not a cure all.

Stating that it is a sin to have a glass of wine is placing a stumbling block in front of your brother and sister. If drinking causes you to loose your self-control and sin, then don't drink, period. If it does not, then it is not a sin to you.

my 2

[Servant54]

I was not directed by the Holy Spirit, but it makes total common sense that if 68% of all who are saved are kids between 9 and 14 and 28% are between 14 and 19 I should not be wasting valuable time with others

In witnessing I think you should follow the Holy Spirit rather than choose a target market based on statistics.

Yes, you are right I have a lot to learn and though I have been street witnessing for 35 years off and on I sometimes feel like it is my first time out. I go by general priciples but need to be lead more by the Holy Spirit..some times that is harder than it seems.

Thank you for the pointers. Pray that I get better understanding..I will always humbly except pointers from anyone who feels they have something to share about evangelism.

[artsylady]

Therefore, we are not to judge each other in such matters.

So much for a "clear reading" of the scriptures...

I think we understand each other on this. However, Servant told me I should tell people I don't drink at all because it is 'against my religion', which he later recanted and said he didnt mean that I should express it that way. I have this funny feeling he's going to recant about 'wasting his time' and say he didn't mean it that way.

If he is not like the Crazy Christian woman then I am sorry. This video is a good example of what we should not be - seeing and rebuking the devil all of the time, looking for evil and being fearful and judgemental of others. I have said a few times earlier in the thread that I thought his heart was in the right place. Truth is, I don't know Servant, he's been here a week and he's a street preacher and judges others who have a glass of wine. If he is like the crazy Christian woman, I hope he will see that this is damaging to the kingdom, not helpful and change. Maybe the Crazy Christian woman's heart is in the right place, but she has some serious issues to deal with.

[artsylady]

Yes, you are right I have a lot to learn and though I have been street witnessing for 35 years off and on I sometimes feel like it is my first time out. I go by general priciples but need to be lead more by the Holy Spirit..some times that is harder than it seems.

Thank you for the pointers. Pray that I get better understanding..I will always humbly except pointers from anyone who feels they have something to share about evangelism.

I've never done street evangelism so I don't know much about that but the best advice anyone can give you is the most prominent commandments in the Bible to love. And if someone has a question answer about your faith, answer with respect and gentleness.

[Servant54]

Hi Servant.

You mentioned Proverbs 23. Indeed Proverbs is great isn't it. If nothing else this debate has gotten me reading Proverbs again. Now I know you said I broke a command of God when I had one glass of wine with dinner. I guess you would say that I sin every time I take communion each week? But anyway when I read the entire verse below as you suggested and meditate on it, I see a very good description of gluttony and addiction, it is extremely insightful. If you have ever been around people who have a problem with food or alcohol you would see what I mean, they have a fascination with the substance, the "gaze upon it". But the command that I read that has application to our discussion is verse 20 and 21. Anyway it is just one of those cases that two Christians look at the exact same scripture and come up with different things.

Peace.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

Who are you saying is not supposed to gaze on the wine? It is the son correct? He is not to gaze on it his father says. Correct? Remember...... this is not an admonishment to drunks or gluttons but to the son who has never drank by the sound of it. He has not had a problem as you are saying as drunks do.... so why is the father admonishing him about this? Your interpretation does not make sense.

There are several admonishments in the chapter like against seeking riches.. VRS 4 "SET NOT YOUR EYES ON THAT WHICH IS NOT?" is the son not to set his eyes or is this just talking about how those seeking riches set their eyes.

Keep reading the chapter and read the other chapters about harlots, sinners, and evil men and how the son is NOT to "look" ",lust", "envy".and all sorts of other things..these are commandments from his father and these are commandments from our Father.

Read Proverbs 2:1 TREASURE MY COMMANDMENTS , Proverbs 3:1 My son. do not forget my law, but let your heart KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. Proverbs 4:2 I GIVE YOU GOOD DOCTRINE

I am trying to pin you on this text because it is important to see the correct interpretation of it so God can then work on the truth that has come forth. I do not do this to be mean or "win" some prize I honestly believe if people will be honest with the text that this verse will change their whole way of thinking about alcohol.

How many verse do we need to teach being Born Again? Well we have one Jn 3:3 Lest Ye be Born Again and maybe one more. Almost everyone here says you must be born again based on that ONE scripture..why do we need a whole bunch of scriptures to say DO NOT LOOK ON WINE..one should be enough.

Yes it is so true once you get into Proverbs you will be pulled in..I have been there for about three years and just said to myself the other day...Joel you need to quit rereading and rereading Proverbs.

It has changed my life though....and not anything about alcohol..just the scriptures on how to act.... like He who answers a matter before he hears it or the discretion of a man makes him slow to anger.......it has totally changed how I debate/converse over the internet..I realize I need to be kind, etc. It has made me anew!

Ok on we go..blessings..ya should have left when you could have

Edited May 19, 2009 by Servant54

[Smalcald]

Well I thought it was important to read the entire verse as you suggested and as we always should when looking at scripture.

Here is what impacted in regards to wine and food and other substances. The verse is not just about alcohol. It is a very accurate warning about all sorts of cravings and addictions. There is no need for this sort of work to get at the meaning as you say it is pretty straightforward. I will simply let the Word speak for itself and people can decide what it means:

3 Do not crave his delicacies,

for that food is deceptive.

4 Do not wear yourself out to get rich;

have the wisdom to show restraint.

5 Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone,

for they will surely sprout wings

and fly off to the sky like an eagle.

6 Do not eat the food of a stingy man,

do not crave his delicacies;

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine

or gorge themselves on meat,

21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,

and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

Who has woe? Who has sorrow?

Who has strife? Who has complaints?

Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?

30 Those who linger over wine,

who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

32 In the end it bites like a snake

and poisons like a viper.

33 Your eyes will see strange sights

and your mind imagine confusing things.

34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,

lying on top of the rigging.

35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!

They beat me, but I don't feel it!

When will I wake up

so I can find another drink?"

So the message of moderation is clear, be it meat or wine, we are not to linger or crave or gaze upon and obsess over these things. If you have ever worked with people who are struggling with addiction to alcohol or known one this is a very accurate verse, particular 35, they often end up injuring themselves or getting hit etc, they don't feel pain and they wake up and need another drink.

I do love this passage I can see why you have profited from it as I do also. Of course there is obviously no command about abstaining from all meat or wine.

Peace.

[Servant54]

Smalcald,

I can see why you left out the passages about avoiding the harlot..".So the message of moderation is clear"

[Servant54]

Smalcald.......

Proverbs 23

3 Do not crave his delicacies,

4 Do not wear yourself out to get rich;

6 Do not eat the food of a stingy man,

9 Do not speak to a fool,

for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.

10 Do not move an ancient boundary stone

or encroach on the fields of the fatherless,

13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;

if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.

17 Do not let your heart envy sinners,

but always be zealous for the fear of the LORD.

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine

or gorge themselves on meat,

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup,

when it goes down smoothly!

Here are the DO NOT scriptures of Proverbs 23, can you show me which ones are ok to DO with moderation?

[Axxman]

Any time wine was used in a good context, or where its clear a believer is using it will be automatically changed to 'grape juice'. Any time wine was used in a bad context it is 'wine'.

Yes...because reading and interpreting the bible based on the context is an outdated and unpopular way to do things...

No, no no dear brother. Context is EVERYTHING if you are searching for the truth.

Then why Sister are you so hard on those that do so in reference to wine? If the context is Jesus making "wine" then I have EVERY good reason to assume that it is non-alcoholic wine. If the context is a man exposing himself then I can equally assume it is alcoholic wine.

[Axxman]

And to you, one more time Brother Axxman, since I've asked a multitude of times now with no answer.... With hundreds of references to wine why didn't God just say "Don't drink alcoholic wine" even once?

We see clear rules against it for kings, priests when they are in the holiest of holies and for Nazarites, but nothing clearly against some for the rest. Please try to answer.

No one answered why deacons can't be given to MUCH "grape juice." I think older women are also told the same - not too much "grape juice" Why do you think Deacons aren't supposed to drink a lot of "grape juice". Do tell!

Wouldn't it just be nice if God gave us all the answers in black and white? Personally...I don't think God said "Don't drink alcoholic wine" for a VERY GOOD REASON. God had no intent of putting a ban on alcohol anymore than he put a ban on pork..or divorce. As I've repeated a dozen times...drinking alcohol is NOT a sin. Neither is divorce...unless you do it without Gods strict guidelines and standards in place.

Of course the bible states that "God hates divorce" and that doesn't stop a gazillion Christians from exercising that option. Likewise, the bible gives plenty of warnings about alcohol and the dangers of it...but that doesn't stop Christians from thinking they can handle it.

Yes, it would have been far easier if God stepped up and spelled out the details of EVERY single issue that we had to face in our lives. As it is...it is very difficult for anyone to prove that drinking alcohol is a sin. But i don't disagree with attempts to show that the bible has a negative attitude towards alcoholic beverages in general. That much is clear.

My point from the beginning has been to dissuade people from trying to place this dangerous and mocking beverage into the hands of my Saviour as an excuse.

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Concerning the call for deacons to not be given to "much wine"...its pretty simple really. The actual greek in verse 3 is "me paroinos" which means