Angel Creation

[mike2]

Hope this helps:

There was a time when all the angels that ever will be, were created

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.(KJV, ASV)

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Rev 12:8 but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Satan was in the garden

blessings

mike2

[Zanhoshi Zhuedo]

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Gen 1:2 "The earth was without form and void..."

God does not create things "without form and void". The original Hebrew words used there imply an indistinguishable ruin and darkness.

Scientists believe the Universe to be billions of years old. It is possible that God created the Heavens and the Earth that long ago, and that He was doing something with it, when Satan rebelled and was cast down. Down - that is, into the physical universe God had created. Thus was can suggest that Satan was the cause of the indistinguishable ruin and darkness.

Following this line of reasoning... The "Creation" as traditionally told would still have happened about six thousand years ago, but with this undefined period of time before it during which Satan was cast down.

This would also give another good reason for the Creation of man in God's image: Satan had destroyed the universe, and god had just finished fixing it. So He created representative figures in His image with power and authority in the physical universe. It's all connected to God's plan to destroy Satan for good, and bring many children in to Himself.

To address the question of WHEN the angels were created... Given what was said above, it would have to be some time between Gen1:1 and Gen1:2.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Zanhoshi Zhuedo

[mizzdy]

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Gen 1:2 "The earth was without form and void..."

Actually I understand from several rabbis and the guy I am learning Hebrew from its, In a beginning, has to do with the postition of the dots and orders or something like that. When read it like that it takes on all kinds of thought but still the bible is pretty silent on the whole issue.

[canuckamuck]

Mike 2: You bring up two interesting points, and I am afraid I am going to put some confusion into the mix here.

First about Gen 2:1

There was a time when all the angels that ever will be, were created

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.(KJV, ASV)

.

By your assumption here you are proposing that no new creatures ever appear in heaven. I think it is better to assume that they're are no new types of creatures in heaven. Just like on Earth there are no new types. But there are certainly new creatures born every second. I have never known the Lord to create a creature that cannot reproduce itself. I would hesitate to assume all heaven is sterile because that doesn't seem to be God's nature. Gen 6: seems to propose a reproductive ability in the 'sons of God' (angels?), but that is big topic all by itself.

Also, sometimes it is the sun stars and moon which are regarded as the hosts of heaven. But I believe they are included in this statement about the completion of the heavens and the Earth. But this verse does seem to confirm Angel creation occurring in the great 6 day event and I find that helpful.

Revelations 12

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

Rev 12:8 but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Satan was in the garden

If Rev 12:7 war is actually the rebellion in heaven ending in Satan being cast out of heaven (which I agree it seems to be) then we have a confusing time line of the women giving birth to (Christ?), at the beginning on the chapter.

Also it refers to the dragon being cast to earth, which I understand in this usage to be simply, solid ground. To assume it was the garden is a bit of an extra step. We know since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden, that some of the planet was not the garden. It would make sense that Satan would not be delivered to the garden for his banishment. Does anyone else place this verse as the original banishment of Satan from heaven, I really would like to know because to me I find it very confusing.

Thanks.

[canuckamuck]

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth"

Gen 1:2 "The earth was without form and void..."

God does not create things "without form and void". The original Hebrew words used there imply an indistinguishable ruin and darkness.

Scientists believe the Universe to be billions of years old. It is possible that God created the Heavens and the Earth that long ago, and that He was doing something with it, when Satan rebelled and was cast down. Down - that is, into the physical universe God had created. Thus was can suggest that Satan was the cause of the indistinguishable ruin and darkness.

Following this line of reasoning... The "Creation" as traditionally told would still have happened about six thousand years ago, but with this undefined period of time before it during which Satan was cast down.

This would also give another good reason for the Creation of man in God's image: Satan had destroyed the universe, and god had just finished fixing it. So He created representative figures in His image with power and authority in the physical universe. It's all connected to God's plan to destroy Satan for good, and bring many children in to Himself.

To address the question of WHEN the angels were created... Given what was said above, it would have to be some time between Gen1:1 and Gen1:2.

Yes this is the gap theory. This idea comes from trying to reconcile Gen:1 and Gen:2 to make them chronological. I find that this requires a great deal of imagination and gives Satan a little too much credit and takes away credit from God. If God was casting out Satan this would mean God overpowered Satan, which of course this is true. So if God had total control over the rebellious angel, how could he allow the destruction of His newly created heaven and earth. and why the was only earth changed to formless and and void. And then of course you need to have God fixing all the damage that was created when Satan was cast out. Also, it is never proposed that man was created as a defense system against Satan. Adam proved to be quite ineffective in that task, which by your thinking was yet another divine project gone bad.

Two things help to avoid this line of thinking.

1) Satan is not a god and has no power to destroy God's creation.

2)It is better to read Gen:1 in this way: In the Beginning God created all things that were created. Then you won't have to worry about double creation and Godly errors.

[HAZARD]

I have many questions, but I will begin with this: What is the timeline of creation; in regards to heavenly creatures (angels, seraphim, cherubs

[canuckamuck]

Hazard, that is an incredible amount of information. Thanks for going into all that detail. It will take me sometime to work it our for myself, but I do see many valid points I had not yet considered. I will be back later to discuss this some more.

Thank you very much

[HAZARD]

Hazard, that is an incredible amount of information. Thanks for going into all that detail. It will take me sometime to work it our for myself, but I will be back later to discuss this some more.

Thank you very much

Hi mate.

"I do see many valid points I had not yet considered."

.

Take your time. If you go at it with an open mind and honest heart and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you in your studies you will get to the truth every time.

In Jesus,

Haz.

[canuckamuck]

Your very long reply deserves an earnest response, but The length of my reply will contain fewer words.

The primary problem I have with the case you presented is the contextual errors prevalent in your main evidence. (Isa. 14:12-14)

-Isaiah 14:12-14. This chapter up to verse 24 alludes to the actions of the King of Babylon as being similar in intent as those of Satan. For this he was given the name Lucifer. It cannot be supposed that all of the things attributed to this Lucifer here can be attributed to Satan (When did Satan cut down trees in Lebanon for example) However all of these things can be attributed to the King of Babylon who is clearly named here, and Isaiah is told to address this prophecy to him. Why would God get Isaiah to prophecy to Satan, it makes no sense when the rest of the message is for humans. Further on it says this Lucifer will be buried alone because he has slain his people. He finishes with saying he will make Babylon a possession for porcupines, not a strong threat to Satan, but serious insult to the king.

My conclusion here is this is a message to the King of Babylon only.

Also the flood in 2 Peter 3:3-7, is clearly Noah’s flood

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (NKJV)

The earth was and will be destroyed once by water and next by fire. No mention of Satan’s rebellion here.

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was long suffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

This premise is faulty. Scoffers of today need not know of your proposed previous flood, as there was Noah’s flood which was done to destroy inequity. Remembering your flood would be redundant and pointless as it refers to angel's disobedience not man’s.

I found problems in other places, but so far I have a feeling that what I originally said about the gap theory appears to be true.

Edited June 25, 2009 by canuckamuck

[woundeddog]

I have many questions, but I will begin with this: What is the timeline of creation; in regards to heavenly creatures (angels, seraphim, cherubs