Concerning Creation

[martin frobisher]

I suspect Aristotle's mistakes are very similar to Shiloh's - thinking about how things "should" be, rather than finding out how they are?

What does Shiloh have to do with what I'm saying?

I am arguing my own position.

Please refrain from the personal attacks against Shiloh, OK?

What personal attacks?

There haven't been any.

[Guest shiloh357]

Creation reflects God's glory and tells certain things about God, but we cannot go backwards and say therefore we can deduce from what we know about God how creation should be.

Does God change his mind? Actually there is plenty of scripture that seems to suggest he does!

Against my better judgment I will respond to this.

Creation reflects its Creator. A song is a reflection of its composer; a painting is a reflection of the artist.

Obviously, the natural world cannot possibly tell us everything we need to know about God and I have never made such an assertion.

However, according to Paul, nature DOES reveal enough knowledge of God through general revelation, that a true seeker can find Him and will be led to the special revelation of God. Paul states that the pagan world, for that reason is without excuse in their rejection of the true God.

I never said God does not change His mind. But God's essential nature and attributes do not change and God's Word never returns to Him void. God's promises can be depended upon because the God Himself in Mal. 3:6 claims He does not change.

We can easily see God reflected in everything He has made and this has been shown over and over.

[martin frobisher]

...and since creation cannot tell us everything about the creator, then your approach is flawed.

[Guest shiloh357]

...and since creation cannot tell us everything about the creator, then your approach is flawed.

No, it is not flawed. It WOULD be flawed if I had claimed that creation tells us everything about the Creator. But I have not made that claim. I have made the point that creation serves as general revelation and teaches us just enough about the Creator to place Him within reach if we are willing to seek Him out.

It's like a man who lost and wondering in a dark cave. If he suddenly sees a pinhole of light, he MUST travel toward it. If he turns away from it, he risks being doomed to remain lost. In the same way, the natural world testifies of God's existence and provides enough information to mankind that man is without excuse and cannot claim ignorance or blame God for not revealing Himself. If man turns away from the information that God has provided, like the man in the cave, man is doomed to reamain forever lost and without hope.

[martin frobisher]

When one analyses the content of your posts, I have to respectfully disagree.

By saying that the nature of the creator can tell us the nature of creation, you have in effect been saying we can tell at least some of the elements of the nature of God from creation. You're saying that creation is the mirror.

[Guest shiloh357]

When one analyses the content of your posts, I have to respectfully disagree.

Disagree with with what, specifically? If you can find anything specific in the content of my posts that contradicts what I have just said, please produce it. If not, then your disagreement is baseless.

By saying that the nature of the creator can tell us the nature of creation, you have in effect been saying we can tell at least some of the elements of the nature of God from creation. You're saying that creation is the mirror.

I am not saying that creation is a mirror per se, but as I already stated it does reflect certain aspects of the Creator. The Bible teaches us that nature reveals things about God.

There are certain elements of created order that can be observed and they should not surprise us in terms of their order and consistencty given that they were created by a God who does not change, who always remains the same.

[martin frobisher]

Sorry, are we back to the usual rules of having to prove assertions or your rules of having to disprove assertions?

If you are surmising characteristics of creation from the creator as you have done, that is flawed.

[Guest shiloh357]

All I have said is that if you found something in the contents of my posts that contradicts what I have posted recently, the show me where I have done so. That is all I am asking.

As for creation, I am not saying anything different than what the Bible says. The Bible says that God is reflected in his creation. All I have said is that it is reasonable, if creation reflects the Creator, to see things in creation that remind us of him.

I don't really see where a Christian can actually claim that to be flawed.

[martin frobisher]

Yes, we're going to go round in circles here I suspect.

Can we learn about creation from observation?

Yes/No?

Are we currently debating on the basis of having to prove assertions, or disprove assertions?

Edited July 5, 2009 by martin frobisher

[nebula]

The passage is talking about creation demonstrating the power of God.

The verse states:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead."

If what you said is correct, would not the passage state: "For the power of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, that is even his eternal power and Godhead." ?