Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[lekh l'kha]

I partly agree with you. But our own efforts to meet the standard (through obedience to the Law) = self-righteousness, and our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. He will not touch it or come near it, and He will not allow us to bring it near Him, because it is stained with our sin.

We have to die to our self-effort: "through the Law, I died to the Law, that I might live to God" (Gal.2: 19).

And the Law is nothing more or less than the expression of that standard you are talking about.

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous.

The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior.

Grace does not enable us to meet the standard. Grace is the Spirit of Christ in us meeting the standard, by delivering us from the power of sin and sanctifying us, and producing the fruit of the Spirit in and through us which fulfills the Law.

Same thing; just different words. You said what I was thinking in different terms.

It has NOTHING to do with our works or with us meeting the standard - it is ALL God's work of redemption and of salvation and of sanctification. It is not God's work + our efforts at righteousness.

I agree, but no one is arguing that it is. Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making.

Amen, well said Shiloh.

Err... BlindSeeker gave Shiloh a feather to put in his cap.

Does anyone have a feather for BlindSeeker?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 29 2009, 02:32 AM)

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

No I'm not.

Yes, you are.

The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Our obedience does have something to do with us. There are all kinds of commandments for Christians to obey. We simply don't obey under our own strength or with the motivation to earn God's favor. Our obedience is from the heart as an act of worship and sacrfice. It is motivated by a love from a grateful heart for the salvation we have received.

I will agree to disagree with you. Self-righteousness is not only what you say above (although it is also what you say above). Self-righteousness is also what I described above - that is, ANY righteousness which is not the righteousness of Christ.

That is YOUR definition. I am only applying the biblical one. I will have to disagree with you and stick with the Bible.

[lekh l'kha]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jul 29 2009, 02:32 AM)

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

No I'm not.

Yes, you are.

The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Our obedience does have something to do with us. There are all kinds of commandments for Christians to obey. We simply don't obey under our own strength or with the motivation to earn God's favor. Our obedience is from the heart as an act of worship and sacrfice. It is motivated by a love from a grateful heart for the salvation we have received.

I will agree to disagree with you. Self-righteousness is not only what you say above (although it is also what you say above). Self-righteousness is also what I described above - that is, ANY righteousness which is not the righteousness of Christ.

That is YOUR definition. I am only applying the biblical one. I will have to disagree with you and stick with the Bible.

I believe the Bible teaches that there is only ONE who is righteous - Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

But I don't want you and I to fight about it - that would be against what He commands us

[BlindSeeker]

I partly agree with you. But our own efforts to meet the standard (through obedience to the Law) = self-righteousness, and our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. He will not touch it or come near it, and He will not allow us to bring it near Him, because it is stained with our sin.

We have to die to our self-effort: "through the Law, I died to the Law, that I might live to God" (Gal.2: 19).

And the Law is nothing more or less than the expression of that standard you are talking about.

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous.

The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior.

Grace does not enable us to meet the standard. Grace is the Spirit of Christ in us meeting the standard, by delivering us from the power of sin and sanctifying us, and producing the fruit of the Spirit in and through us which fulfills the Law.

Same thing; just different words. You said what I was thinking in different terms.

It has NOTHING to do with our works or with us meeting the standard - it is ALL God's work of redemption and of salvation and of sanctification. It is not God's work + our efforts at righteousness.

I agree, but no one is arguing that it is. Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making.

Amen, well said Shiloh.

Err... BlindSeeker gave Shiloh a feather to put in his cap.

Does anyone have a feather for BlindSeeker?

Cute.

Now pat yourself on the back and go put one in your own little cap.

[BlindSeeker]

The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Our submission = our obedience . . . but our obedience has nothing to do with us . . . .

So we're just like gloves, or puppets.

[lekh l'kha]

The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Our submission = our obedience . . . but our obedience has nothing to do with us . . . .

So we're just like gloves, or puppets.

No, because we have a will. But the Bible teaches that there is only ONE righteous: Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,"

(Gal 5:22)

It is not our fruit.

Edited July 29, 2009 by lekh l'kha

[lekh l'kha]

I partly agree with you. But our own efforts to meet the standard (through obedience to the Law) = self-righteousness, and our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. He will not touch it or come near it, and He will not allow us to bring it near Him, because it is stained with our sin.

We have to die to our self-effort: "through the Law, I died to the Law, that I might live to God" (Gal.2: 19).

And the Law is nothing more or less than the expression of that standard you are talking about.

The problem is that you are trying to frame obedience to the law as "self-righteousness" and that is really where you are mistaken. If a person is keeping God's commandments, the last thing they will be is self-righteous.

Self-righteousness does not come from trying to keep God's commandments. Self-righteousness occurs when people are measuring their obedience against another person. It is when you feel that YOU are more pleasing to God than others that you become self-righteous.

The next problem with your position is that you misinterpret obedience as "trying to meet the standard by human effort." That is a value YOU are assigning to others. People like myself see obeidence as an act of grateful love. I obey God because it is the most natural response, and the most appropriate outworking of my salvation. I don't obey in order to achieve righteousnes. I obey because I am a new creation and He has planted within me a desire and a passion to please Him and to be obedient and faithful to Him as my Savior.

Grace does not enable us to meet the standard. Grace is the Spirit of Christ in us meeting the standard, by delivering us from the power of sin and sanctifying us, and producing the fruit of the Spirit in and through us which fulfills the Law.

Same thing; just different words. You said what I was thinking in different terms.

It has NOTHING to do with our works or with us meeting the standard - it is ALL God's work of redemption and of salvation and of sanctification. It is not God's work + our efforts at righteousness.

I agree, but no one is arguing that it is. Again, you are trying to refute an argument no one else (at least, not me) is making.

Amen, well said Shiloh.

Err... BlindSeeker gave Shiloh a feather to put in his cap.

Does anyone have a feather for BlindSeeker?

Cute.

Now pat yourself on the back and go put one in your own little cap.

I would, but you guys seem to have hidden the feather-box in here somewhere. I guess I'll have to settle for patting myself on the back...

I hope you realize that I'm just kidding with you, BlindSeeker

[BlindSeeker]

The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Our submission = our obedience . . . but our obedience has nothing to do with us . . . .

So we're just like gloves, or puppets.

No, because we have a will. But the Bible teaches that there is only ONE righteous: Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,"

(Gal 5:22)

It is not our fruit.

So it is not us loving.

It is not our joy.

It is not our peace.

It is not we who are long suffering.

It is not us extending goodness, kindness and mercy.

It is not our faith.

But we do have free will . . . but we just don't obey, rather we submit.

[lekh l'kha]

The truth is our obedience to the law comes from (a) our submission to the law-giver and (b) from the Spirit of the law-giver in us. Our obedience has nothing to with us - it is Christ working in and through us. Any other obedience not produced by the Spirit of Christ is not the righteousness of Christ. And if it's not the righteousness of Christ, it is self-righteousness.

Our submission = our obedience . . . but our obedience has nothing to do with us . . . .

So we're just like gloves, or puppets.

No, because we have a will. But the Bible teaches that there is only ONE righteous: Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,"

(Gal 5:22)

It is not our fruit.

So it is not us loving.

It is not our joy.

It is not our peace.

It is not we who are long suffering.

It is not us extending goodness, kindness and mercy.

It is not our faith.

But we do have free will . . . but we just don't obey, rather we submit.

"I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." (Joh 15:5)

It's not the fruit of the branches - it's the fruit of the vine:

"For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do. But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me. I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man that I am!

Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." (Rom 7:19-25)

[WolfBitn]

This brings to mind a question that inspires me for some reason

What does the law... the fact it exists, say about free will?

That just smacked me like a fright train sorry lol