Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[Guest shiloh357]

I think it should be noted that law and grace are two wings of the same bird. Implicit in God's commandments is the grace and enabling to keep them. God does not demand from us what His grace does not also provide.

[BlindSeeker]

I find it interesting that so many of you are so wrapped around the 10 Commandments.

Whenever Jesus was asked about such things his answer was always the same.

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26" What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Nothing here about the "10".

Matt 22:34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Nothing here about the "10".

Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Again, nothing about the "10".

What does James call the Royal Law...If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

Nothing about the "10"

When Jesus did address the "10", what did He say about them, He showed that following the "letter of the law" is not what he was after, He is after your heart.

Number 6...

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Number 7...

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Even in response to the rich young ruler Jesus didnt stick to the "10"...Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'

And despite all this, you are wrapped around the "10". It seems you are missing the point.

All that and you only see " Love God, love your neighbor" but not how it is briefly explained how to love God and your neighbor righteously and effectively in the Ten Commandments . . . with all the rest of the scriptures giving greater expository and witness wrap around the Ten witnessing to God's will, man's need, how to walk with God and live peaceably one with another and the love of God witnessed in the Passion of Christ.

Missing what point?

[BlindSeeker]

How could they be wrong if "they were not in place at the time?"

And again, you are confusing legalism with legality.

murder is wrong because it is wrong, not because God put it on a list.

It was put on the list becuase it was wrong, not the other way around.

The thing is you say it wasn't there. Not that it was wrong. How can it be wrong to go 75 mph if there isn't a speed limit?

[WolfBitn]

I think it should be noted that law and grace are two wings of the same bird. Implicit in God's commandments is the grace and enabling to keep them. God does not demand from us what His grace does not also provide.

Thats exactly how i see it too. 2 wings of the same bird is a great illustration. Also i stress that these laws arent addressing the outward so much as the inward. Jesus taught us, and it should have been known all along, that these things were to be kept from the heart... Not murdering our brother in our hearts, not committing adultry in our hearts.. by keeping these 10 form the heart, our heart would remain as pure as it can be in this life, and we would be demonstrating the 2 great laws

I also agree God doesnt hold the gentile to the dietary laws... but the 10 seem to transcend all the law in my opinion... these are the 10 basics.

Also ii just wanted to say that as a gentile grafted into the tree, i too love the Jewish celebrations, and sometimes i celebrate various sabboths. Ive found that sudy with Jews has helped me and deepened my understanding of scripture in some pretty huge ways. One thing i admire about the average Jew... They know the word of God better than most christians hands down in a very superior way.

God bless Shiloh

Eric

[BlindSeeker]

hey i showed you where God Himself called the 10 law... i cant help it if you want to disagree with God on this matter Gator... but its your perogative

God also called this these laws, do you keep all of them?

Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.

Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.

And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.

I am sorry it bothers you so much, but I just dont see the 10 commandments as some sort of magical list like you do.

At the time God had a civil government to in place to enforce these laws. Kinda the difference between Nehemiah and Ezra . . .

Still, I would say that the laws mention are righteous judgments nonetheless . . . wouldn't you?

[WolfBitn]

All that and you only see " Love God, love your neighbor" but not how it is briefly explained how to love God and your neighbor righteously and effectively in the Ten Commandments . . . with all the rest of the scriptures giving greater expository and witness wrap around the Ten witnessing to God's will, man's need, how to walk with God and live peaceably one with another and the love of God witnessed in the Passion of Christ.

Missing what point?

I agree the 10 commadments do give a good example of how to Love God and how to love your neighbor, but they are all about our actions, not our heart, not our motivations.

Why do you suppose Jesus felt the need to take them further, to go beyond just what was written in the "10".

These laws were alwaye meant to be kept form the heart Gator. The fact that mankind goes through periods of apostasy is our fault not Gods. He instructed us all along to keep these things from our hearts, and to rend our hearts. Jesus only reminided an apostate leadership of that which they already knew and let slip

[WolfBitn]

The thing is you say it wasn't there. Not that it was wrong. How can it be wrong to go 75 mph if there isn't a speed limit?

no, I didnt say it was not there. It has always been there, not just when Moses passed on the "10".

this has been my point all along.

The things listed in the 10 were wrong before they were listed.

then you agree with what ive said all along... Law has always been and grace has existed since the fall

[BlindSeeker]

The thing is you say it wasn't there. Not that it was wrong. How can it be wrong to go 75 mph if there isn't a speed limit?

no, I didnt say it was not there. It has always been there, not just when Moses passed on the "10".

this has been my point all along.

The things listed in the 10 were wrong before they were listed. Cain didnt need to "10" to know that murder was wrong. You and I dont need the "10" to know that murder is wrong.

Well . . . it seem implied . . .

But He kept the law of God that stood in Adams day and stands now

the 10 commandments didnt stand in Adam's day

[BlindSeeker]

The thing is you say it wasn't there. Not that it was wrong. How can it be wrong to go 75 mph if there isn't a speed limit?

no, I didnt say it was not there. It has always been there, not just when Moses passed on the "10".

this has been my point all along.

The things listed in the 10 were wrong before they were listed.

then you agree with what ive said all along... Law has always been and grace has existed since the fall

It's enough to cross your eyes

[canuckamuck]

Well the internet went down at my place and I missed a big chunk of this debate, so sorry for not addressing anything directed at me.

I think we all know that we have a working understanding of this concept, it is the terminology that is the bugbear here.

This is also the case for most protracted debates I see here.

I will leave off with my understanding, feel free to debunk it at will.

God is unchanging and righteous. God desires we love each other and Him, and keep our perspective of Him that He is loving, all powerful, and perfect.

Christians do not have to abide the laws of Moses, excepting that they must not cease to (agape) Love God and Neighbor. If you insist that this is the law, then I guess for you it is the law. As for me I use that term to describe Moses' laws. Language is a funny thing. And we are not all using it the same way or in the same understanding.

Grace is for the failing of the flesh which has been demonstrated by the law to be a chronic human condition. There is no salvation under the law unless you are not made of flesh. The Law is perfect, flesh is imperfect, therefore perfect Jesus fulfilled what we can not.

Guard your hearts, Peace to you all.

Edited July 27, 2009 by canuckamuck