Law Vs Grace, or Law AND Grace?

[BlindSeeker]

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the Royal Law [written by the finger of God] according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I have multiple translations and none of them have the words written by the finger of God.

where did those words come from?

Cannot the Word of God stand on it's own without you feeling the need to add words to try and make a point?

Running Gator

asks, "Where did those words come from?"

Of course, the square brackets are an obvious editorial note that they were inserted by me . . . not to mention the color difference.

Square brackets are designed for such a purpose -

Box brackets or square brackets [ ]

"Square brackets are mainly used to enclose explanatory or missing material usually added by someone other than the original author, especially in quoted text."

Wiki link

Running Gator

also asks, "Cannot the Word of God stand on it's own without you feeling the need to add words to try and make a point?"

Well of course the word of God can stand on its on. But here in the discussion forum where we discuss the Word of God I sometimes to add in brackets words for clarity. Here I felt the need to because of who I am speaking to. You seem to have difficulty understanding some simple things here.

Now the question you've been ask multiple times by WolfBitn comes to mind, "Why didn't you address the words if you have a problem with them instead addressing of me?" It seems you do it everywhere you go . . . I would bet good money that your a RINO the way you always do it. Its so ACORNish. It really is such a poor character trait and detracts from your credibility.

If you feel the words do not apply, state why . . . don't ask me why I placed them there . . . I feel they apply, but that's obvious.

[WolfBitn]

The law of sin and death has convicted all of us of our sins. Once we have seen our sinful ways and repented and were saved by the work of JESUS on the cross, HE was the fulfillment of those laws. Thus, we were condemned under the law and saved out from under the law and into grace and the fulfillment of the law by HIM who said HE is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes indeed, agreed. If Christ had not fulfilled the law we would have no savior.

However, once we are saved, shall we continue to break the 10 so that the grace of God should abound even greater? God forbid

[BlindSeeker]

you are twisting my words once again, why do you keep doing that?

Strange words coming from you. Reminds me of a verse -

Ro 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

I said that the things you listed, stealing, greed, etc go against the Loving God and loving your neighbor. If I follow this... 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.". You will notice that ALL of the law hang on these two.

The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart. This love is evident by our doing the things He commands us to do.

John14:15 If ye love me, keep My commandments.

John 15:10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him.

5 But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.

The 2nd commandment proves obedience to the first -

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Now, while these are the two greatest commandments, they are not the only commandments -

Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Now, unfortunately, people just do not know how to love, and unfortunately that is often very evident here in Worthy Land. So God made sure we had a brief summary of how to love with the Ten Commandments.

Four commandments help us understand how to love God; the other six help us understand how to love each other. See, we can justify just about anything. That

[Guest man]

1 Timothy 1

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,

7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Titus 3

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

I understand that those verses will go unread and ignored, but I thought I would throw them out there anyway....................just in case.

[canuckamuck]

1 Timothy 1

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,

7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Titus 3

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

I understand that those verses will go unread and ignored, but I thought I would throw them out there anyway....................just in case.

Wonderful verses Man, you'll notice part of 1 Tim in my signature.

I hope Wolf and Blind comment on them also.

[WolfBitn]

1 Timothy 1

5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,

7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Titus 3

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

I understand that those verses will go unread and ignored, but I thought I would throw them out there anyway....................just in case.

Wonderful verses Man, you'll notice part of 1 Tim in my signature.

I hope Wolf and Blind comment on them also.

unread and ignored?... why should they be ignored?

Now lets examine them... In this thread i make the true declaration that from adam til now we have had law, and we have had grace, BOTH working together at the same time, and this is indesputable

This truth is being disputed NOT by me, but by those striving to show we are not subject to any law, when 'repent and believe' is in itself a law.

Why should one strive AGAINST the law?

Who here can honestly say that laws do not apply to us today when murderers and whoremongers wont enter the kingdom of heaven... When Jesus said 'IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS'?

Do you disagree that the commandments of God testifies against and prosecutes all men that we are evil and sin laden and deserving of Hell? Do you disagree that the law justifies God's judgement against men? Do you disagree that the law PROVES we need a savior and grace?

What some here are doing is twisting a bit the intent of scripture. Paul himself says the law is GOOD because it is our SCHOOLMASTER... paul finds no fault with the law, he finds fault with people thinking that by keeping the law they can be saved, because we are so unable the law saved none of us... we all stand condemned by it. Paul is faulting the idea that the law can save us... it COULD if we could live it, but we either cant or dont.

God has NEVER excused us to sin, and the 10 show us what sin actually is

Edited July 26, 2009 by WolfBitn

[canuckamuck]

Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [you can lose your savior under the law]

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Paul knows the law better than any, He says you should avoid the law. He clearly did not believe the law and the 10 commandments are the same thing.

God has a standard of righteousness. He articulated this standard in The 10 commandments. He then created a religion based on what it would require for humans to be righteous by works. The 10 commandments was the summation of this religion because God would not create a religion contrary to His standard The next several centuries proved no man can keep the law. Everyone sinned and fell short.

Then Jesus came and showed us the letter of the law is not important, it is the spirit of the law which counts. The spirit of the law is that we should walk in love and be merciful and display the fruits of The Spirit. We should avoid the letter of the law because that is the path of death but when we walk in the the spirit of the law, we find life.

I would say we are free to decide, we are not under anything, but to be righteous we must strive to keep in step with the Spirit which is what Paul says to end this chapter

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Edited July 26, 2009 by canuckamuck

[WolfBitn]

Canuck my friend though you disagree with me you just made my point

Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

As i said earlier Paul doesnt condemn the law, he praises it. He ONLY condemns trying to GAIN salvation throught he law... those who try to be justified by the law are condemned because no man can keep it... and YET... unrepentant breakers of these 10 laws are condemned to hell as well

4.Romans 7:12

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

5.Romans 7:16

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

6.Romans 7:21

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7.1 Timothy 1:8

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

We should strive to KEEP the law, after repenting, TURNING from sin... holding to these laws, but KNOWING we are saved by grace... TRUSTING in the sacrifice of the blood of Christ for oiur salvation, not the keeping of the law... the keeping of the law is what we strive for from our hearts, keeping us from sin... its our goal for striving against sin, but its the blood of Christ that covers us.. again paul ONLY CONDEMNS the thought that we can be saved by the keeping of the law... its too late, we've already broken it if we have lived to the age we can think and choose good or evil

[canuckamuck]

Canuck my friend though you disagree with me you just made my point

Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Wolf my friend, I did not make your point.

Paul is saying if you try to keep the law you die. He said nothing of after repenting and then trying to keep it. Why would you cast away your salvation by returning to the law? But here is what you said:

We should strive to KEEP the law, after repenting, TURNING from sin... holding to these laws, but KNOWING we are saved by grace... TRUSTING in the sacrifice of the blood of Christ for oiur salvation, not the keeping of the law... the keeping of the law is what we strive for from our hearts, keeping us from sin... its our goal for striving against sin, but its the blood of Christ that covers us.. again paul ONLY CONDEMNS the thought that we can be saved by the keeping of the law... its too late, we've already broken it if we have lived to the age we can think and choose good or evil

What I understand from that complicated thought is that we need to keep the law, but know that keeping the law won't save us. But if we don't try to keep the law we are sinners and therefore we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Remember we can't just keep some of it, it is all or nothing. So we must strive to keep the whole law, which is impossible. So Christ sacrifice is just marketing for crucifix sales. We are back to attempting the impossible.

Summation:

-Trusting in the law for your salvation is wrong.

-You still have to try to keep the law

-Not keeping the law sends you to hell.

Saved by grace means saved from the penalty of the law. If you disregard grace you are on your own. You cant be under the law in good times and under grace in bad times. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient or it wasn't.

Living by the Spirit is the prescribed path of a Christian, not living by flesh. And guess what, living by the spirit is the only way to fulfill the standard God has for our lives. The law has no mercy, but the Spirit does. The law cannot be fulfilled by flesh, but love covers a multitude of sins.

So leave the law to sinners, and seek the Holy Spirit.

Here is the rest of your 1 Tim: quotation

8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

If you are one of these, the law is for you.

[canuckamuck]

About Paul praising the law, you are right. The law is perfect with no flaw. It comes from God, and it is divine. The imperfection is man/flesh. Flesh cannot fulfill the law because flesh is impaired by its sin nature.

This is the whole point of why the law is called a school teacher. It showed us that even a perfect religion cannot facilitate salvation, because flesh is incapable of keeping 100 percent perfect lives.

The Law showed us we need Jesus.