loosing salvation

[kross]

You are correct in that I do not believe in free will.

You say you don't believe in free will and then you turn around and say this,

If GOD wants a person to do something, HE knows exactly what it takes to influence that person to do exactly what HE wants. HE does not need to "force" them. They will do it of their "own free will".

And here you put God and satan on the same plane,

Neither GOD nor Satan make choices for us. However, both of them know exactly how to exert the right influence to get us to do exactly what they want us to do.

Satan can only do what God lets him do.

And here's another false statement,

A man without the influence of GOD will do exactly what Satan intends for him to do.

One would think that someone who studied the bible daily for 20 years would know that the devil can't make anyone do anything.

You could start by telling me..........

Your credibility is lacking, so I'm not going to waste my time.

If you feel the need to call me names, you can do that. I won't be offended. I actually expect it.

Not worth my time.

PEace

[godrulz]

All Christians have a relationship with God. We should also desire to not impugn the character and ways of God. Truth sets free and reduces barriers to intimacy or defense of the faith before a thinking world.

[pokemaughan]

In the end the goal is that God is right, correct? Not man? I feel that sometimes these 'discussions' become more of a means to stroke our own pride.

[renren]

I believe the answer to this is studying the seal of salvation the : Holy Spirit. Let us look at this scripture

Ephesians 1:12-14 (King James Version)

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So the seal of the Holy Spirit was given because of belief/faith. If we read Romans Chap4 we see that righteousness was always by Faith.

Is it not possible that the seal can be lost/taken/deactivated through unbelief?

Let's see

Romans 11:17-24

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

If God did not spare Israel because of their unbelief, would He spare us Gentiles for ours?

So i believe that a person can be saved and sealed through faith/belief in Jesus and a person can also be lost and unsealed through unbelief

The belief that once caused the seal to be upon them is now gone. When a person stops believing in Jesus they no longer have the perfect imputed righteousness of Christ and so the Holy Spirit can no longer dwell in them. The only reason the Holy Spirit can dwell in us is through the imputed covering of righteouness Jesus' blood gives us without it He cannot dwell in us.

Now some may argue and say well the person was never sealed to begin with??

But what does the scripture say?? The scripture says that we were once wild...... we were grafted in by faith (and also because of Isreal's unbelief) and connected to the root(Jesus) but we must continue in His kindess otherwise you will be cut off . So yes a person can once be saved by faith in Jesus and be lost by unbelief.

Why is this important?? Because in the last days there will be false doctrines and false christs.

Matthew 24

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect

[Hunterpoet]

I believe the answer to this is studying the seal of salvation the : Holy Spirit. Let us look at this scripture

Ephesians 1:12-14 (King James Version)

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So the seal of the Holy Spirit was given because of belief/faith. If we read Romans Chap4 we see that righteousness was always by Faith.

Is it not possible that the seal can be lost/taken/deactivated through unbelief?

Let's see

Romans 11:17-24

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

If God did not spare Israel because of their unbelief, would He spare us Gentiles for ours?

So i believe that a person can be saved and sealed through faith/belief in Jesus and a person can also be lost and unsealed through unbelief

The belief that once caused the seal to be upon them is now gone. When a person stops believing in Jesus they no longer have the perfect imputed righteousness of Christ and so the Holy Spirit can no longer dwell in them. The only reason the Holy Spirit can dwell in us is through the imputed covering of righteouness Jesus' blood gives us without it He cannot dwell in us.

Now some may argue and say well the person was never sealed to begin with??

But what does the scripture say?? The scripture says that we were once wild...... we were grafted in by faith (and also because of Isreal's unbelief) and connected to the root(Jesus) but we must continue in His kindess otherwise you will be cut off . So yes a person can once be saved by faith in Jesus and be lost by unbelief.

Why is this important?? Because in the last days there will be false doctrines and false christs.

Matthew 24

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect

[abbershay]

Mmm, challenging question.

The most important thing to establish first is the definition or character of the phrases-

once enlightened,

tasted the heavenly gift,

become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

fall away, and

renew... again to repentence.

It's a tough call, and there's a lot of things to take into account, namely the context of the letter, and of course the context of how this applies to God in the Big Picture.

I think the key phrase here is fall away. To what degree must one backslide to 'fall away'? The first thing that comes to mind is a proclaimed 'ex-Christian' who now holds onto Islam or atheism or what-have-you instead of proclaiming Christ as God and their savior. I would call that falling away- to which this passage would make sense. I imagine there is no heart harder than that of a proclaimed 'ex-Christian'.

Sadly there are very few christians who ever make this list. How many have you seen walking in the powers if the age to come ?