Who was Jesus speaking to?

[Guest shiloh357]

I completely believe in the gifts, which is a controversial subject in itself, but I disagree that we will be able to do the same miracles and signs the Apostles did.

Which is why I said that the primary context was intended to be for the Apostles. I don't think we can expect to mimic them. God does not promise us an itemized list of miracles that will be performed. He works as He sees fit and through whom He sees fit. Again, while there is a wider application to us, we need to keep the immediate context where it is.

Preachers who try to tell their congregations that our lives should be a carbon copy of Jesus' life or the apostles's lives are doing their people a great disservice and setting them up with false hopes and guaranteeing promises that God did not make.

[OneLight]

I sat in church last Wednesday and heard a preacher tell everyone that we can all stand on the verse of John 14:12, where Jesus told His disciples; "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Question: if this verse is for the 12 only, why did Jesus say, "He who believes in Me," rather than, "as long as you believe in Me"?

It could be the way He spoke back then. Lets look at this in another way. I may be wrong, but I am willing to take this chance.

There is a managers meeting in a company, headed by the president. The president then gives special permission for those in the meeting to do certain things, and they are all men. He words are such .. "He who is with the plan, I give permission to do such". (yeah, not proper language for today) Is the president giving permission to the whole company, or just those in the meeting?

[nebula]

I sat in church last Wednesday and heard a preacher tell everyone that we can all stand on the verse of John 14:12, where Jesus told His disciples; "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Question: if this verse is for the 12 only, why did Jesus say, "He who believes in Me," rather than, "as long as you believe in Me"?

It could be the way He spoke. Lets look at this in another way. I may be wrong, but I am willing to take this chance.

There is a managers meeting in a company, headed by the president. The president then gives special permission for those in the meeting to do certain things, and they are all men. He words is such .. "He who is with the plan, I give permission to do such". (yeah, not proper language for today) Is the president giving permission to the whole company, or just those in the meeting?

But consider this -

Would you apply everything Jesus said to His 12 disciples that night as applying to them only?

Examples:

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; F80 if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--

Why would the passage in question apply to them only, but the surrounding statements to apply to everyone?

[OneLight]

Preachers who try to tell their congregations that our lives should be a carbon copy of Jesus' life or the apostles's lives are doing their people a great disservice and setting them up with false hopes and guaranteeing promises that God did not make.

We share the same sentiment. This is how I felt when he used this verse in what he called a healing service. Though I believe in healing, I disagree with his teaching. I then wondered how many walked out still unhealed, wondering why God did not heal them? I wonder if they were thinking that is is because others were not right with God? The desired to be healed ... yet, they were not. Proof, the lady in a wheelchair left the same way she came in. I see this type of teaching are very hurtful to His body.

Other issues came up, like trying to exercise the gift of the word of knowledge, saying that there were certain kinds of sickness, or pain, that nobody admitted to. He then made a statement that either he was missing the mark, or that people were not fessing up. This in a Pentecostal church in little NH ...

[nebula]

We share the same sentiment. This is how I felt when he used this verse in what he called a healing service. Though I believe in healing, I disagree with his teaching. I then wondered how many walked out still unhealed, wondering why God did not heal them? I wonder if they were thinking that is is because others were not right with God? The desired to be healed ... yet, they were not. Proof, the lady in a wheelchair left the same way she came in. I see this type of teaching are very hurtful to His body.

Other issues came up, like trying to exercise the gift of the word of knowledge, saying that there were certain kinds of sickness, or pain, that nobody admitted to. He then made a statement that either he was missing the mark, or that people were not fessing up. This in a Pentecostal church in little NH ...

Well, this is a different issue entirely.

I hear testimonies from missions trips to India, African nations, South American nations, etc. where people get healed right and left. Yet these same people pray for healing here in America, and the miracles just don't happen.

We are like those cities where Jesus could not perform many miracles in - even needing to take one man outside of the city to heal him and telling him not to go back to the city at all!

Make sense?

[OneLight]

I sat in church last Wednesday and heard a preacher tell everyone that we can all stand on the verse of John 14:12, where Jesus told His disciples; "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

Question: if this verse is for the 12 only, why did Jesus say, "He who believes in Me," rather than, "as long as you believe in Me"?

It could be the way He spoke. Lets look at this in another way. I may be wrong, but I am willing to take this chance.

There is a managers meeting in a company, headed by the president. The president then gives special permission for those in the meeting to do certain things, and they are all men. He words is such .. "He who is with the plan, I give permission to do such". (yeah, not proper language for today) Is the president giving permission to the whole company, or just those in the meeting?

But consider this -

Would you apply everything Jesus said to His 12 disciples that night as applying to them only?

Examples:

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; F80 if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--

Why would the passage in question apply to them only, but the surrounding statements to apply to everyone?

I see this as dividing scripture rightly. Jesus spoke many times about the kingdom in public, but He did not teach about being able to do the works He did. If I am wrong, which is possible, please point me to the scripture.

The basis of my questions could be seen as asking if everything that He taught to His disciples were meant to the body as a whole? I have to say no, because we are not all Apostles. We can not have all the gifts like the Apostles did. We can not walk in the same way they did, so there will be certain verses that are there to inform us of what the Apostles would do, but that is as far as it goes. If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

[OneLight]

We share the same sentiment. This is how I felt when he used this verse in what he called a healing service. Though I believe in healing, I disagree with his teaching. I then wondered how many walked out still unhealed, wondering why God did not heal them? I wonder if they were thinking that is is because others were not right with God? The desired to be healed ... yet, they were not. Proof, the lady in a wheelchair left the same way she came in. I see this type of teaching are very hurtful to His body.

Other issues came up, like trying to exercise the gift of the word of knowledge, saying that there were certain kinds of sickness, or pain, that nobody admitted to. He then made a statement that either he was missing the mark, or that people were not fessing up. This in a Pentecostal church in little NH ...

Well, this is a different issue entirely.

I hear testimonies from missions trips to India, African nations, South American nations, etc. where people get healed right and left. Yet these same people pray for healing here in America, and the miracles just don't happen.

We are like those cities where Jesus could not perform many miracles in - even needing to take one man outside of the city to heal him and telling him not to go back to the city at all!

Make sense?

I have heard the same. Does it make sense? Not really. Can you tell me why you think this is so? I will say that I have my suspensions, but that is all they are. Nothing scriptural because I have not completely studied why. I would think that is is because His body here is lukewarm at best.

[nebula]

But consider this -

Would you apply everything Jesus said to His 12 disciples that night as applying to them only?

Examples:

1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; F80 if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--

Why would the passage in question apply to them only, but the surrounding statements to apply to everyone?

I see this as dividing scripture rightly. Jesus spoke many times about the kingdom in public, but He did not teach about being able to do the works He did. If I am wrong, which is possible, please point me to the scripture.

The basis of my questions could be seen as asking if everything that He taught to His disciples were meant to the body as a whole? I have to say no, because we are not all Apostles. We can not have all the gifts like the Apostles did. We can not walk in the same way they did, so there will be certain verses that are there to inform us of what the Apostles would do, but that is as far as it goes. If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

So, when Jesus told the 12 about the mansions and the sending of His Spirit, did this apply to them only as well?

[nebula]

I have heard the same. Does it make sense? Not really. Can you tell me why you think this is so?

To the people for whom the spiritual realm is a way of life, miracles come easy. For us to whom the spirit realm is far removed, miracles are hard to come by.

We as a society are ruled by reason and rationality. It blocks us from the spiritual realm.

[nebula]

If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

That all depends on what you believe an apostle is.

Personally, I believe that missionaries - the kind that establish churches - are doing apostolic work.