Who was Jesus speaking to?

[Guest shiloh357]

So, when Jesus told the 12 about the mansions and the sending of His Spirit, did this apply to them only as well?

No one said that John 14 was only applicable to the apostles.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have heard the same. Does it make sense? Not really. Can you tell me why you think this is so?

To the people for whom the spiritual realm is a way of life, miracles come easy. For us to whom the spirit realm is far removed, miracles are hard to come by.

We as a society are ruled by reason and rationality. It blocks us from the spiritual realm.

Very true.

[OneLight]

I see this as dividing scripture rightly. Jesus spoke many times about the kingdom in public, but He did not teach about being able to do the works He did. If I am wrong, which is possible, please point me to the scripture.

The basis of my questions could be seen as asking if everything that He taught to His disciples were meant to the body as a whole? I have to say no, because we are not all Apostles. We can not have all the gifts like the Apostles did. We can not walk in the same way they did, so there will be certain verses that are there to inform us of what the Apostles would do, but that is as far as it goes. If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

So, when Jesus told the 12 about the mansions and the sending of His Spirit, did this apply to them only as well?

No. When Christ taught a subject ONLY to his disciples, I believe it was just for them. If he taught something to His disciples, and also to the rest of His followers, then it was meant for everyone.

[OneLight]

If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

That all depends on what you believe an apostle is.

Personally, I believe that missionaries - the kind that establish churches - are doing apostolic work.

The original Apostles of the NT, those who we know as Apostles today, not the ones who only carried the title because they were sent, all had one thing in common. They were all approached by Christ personally. They saw Jesus and was called by Him personally. This can not be said by the missionaries today, so even though they are sent, they do not hold the office of Apostleship. They would have to have the signs and miracles that accompanied the original Apostles to be them. They may be starting churches and bringing Christ to them, as the Apostles did, but they are not the same.

I know, you didn't directly say that, I just wanted to clear it up a little. What do you think an Apostle is?

[OneLight]

I have heard the same. Does it make sense? Not really. Can you tell me why you think this is so?

To the people for whom the spiritual realm is a way of life, miracles come easy. For us to whom the spirit realm is far removed, miracles are hard to come by.

We as a society are ruled by reason and rationality. It blocks us from the spiritual realm.

Very true.

I would also agree. How do you think we can change that, if we are stuck in a society of reasoning and rationality?

[nebula]

I see this as dividing scripture rightly. Jesus spoke many times about the kingdom in public, but He did not teach about being able to do the works He did. If I am wrong, which is possible, please point me to the scripture.

The basis of my questions could be seen as asking if everything that He taught to His disciples were meant to the body as a whole? I have to say no, because we are not all Apostles. We can not have all the gifts like the Apostles did. We can not walk in the same way they did, so there will be certain verses that are there to inform us of what the Apostles would do, but that is as far as it goes. If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

So, when Jesus told the 12 about the mansions and the sending of His Spirit, did this apply to them only as well?

No. When Christ taught a subject ONLY to his disciples, I believe it was just for them. If he taught something to His disciples, and also to the rest of His followers, then it was meant for everyone.

You are confusing me.

Jesus spoke about the mansions in Heaven only a few verses before He talked about the "greater works".

All of John 14 was spoken just to the 12 Apostles.

[nebula]

I would also agree. How do you think we can change that, if we are stuck in a society of reasoning and rationality?

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

[nebula]

The original Apostles of the NT, those who we know as Apostles today, not the ones who only carried the title because they were sent, all had one thing in common. They were all approached by Christ personally. They saw Jesus and was called by Him personally. This can not be said by the missionaries today, so even though they are sent, they do not hold the office of Apostleship. They would have to have the signs and miracles that accompanied the original Apostles to be them. They may be starting churches and bringing Christ to them, as the Apostles did, but they are not the same.

I know, you didn't directly say that, I just wanted to clear it up a little. What do you think an Apostle is?

But who made the rule about what denotes the office of Apostle?

Was not Barnabas considered an Apostle?

The word "apostle" simply means "messenger" Source.

I know this is another debate, but I am not convinced that our understanding of "apostle" is as it should be.

[OneLight]

The original Apostles of the NT, those who we know as Apostles today, not the ones who only carried the title because they were sent, all had one thing in common. They were all approached by Christ personally. They saw Jesus and was called by Him personally. This can not be said by the missionaries today, so even though they are sent, they do not hold the office of Apostleship. They would have to have the signs and miracles that accompanied the original Apostles to be them. They may be starting churches and bringing Christ to them, as the Apostles did, but they are not the same.

I know, you didn't directly say that, I just wanted to clear it up a little. What do you think an Apostle is?

But who made the rule about what denotes the office of Apostle?

Was not Barnabas considered an Apostle?

The word "apostle" simply means "messenger" Source.

I know this is another debate, but I am not convinced that our understanding of "apostle" is as it should be.

Apostle - G652

ἀπόστολος

apostolos

1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders

.....a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ

.....b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers

...........1) of Barnabas

...........2) of Timothy and Silvanus

This was from Blue Letter Bible

To go a little further, I will use The Complete Word Study Dictionary, NT, by Spiros Zodniates Th.D.

In here, it states that an apostle is one sent, an ambassador or messenger. The apostle can never be greater then the one who sends them. The Lord Himself choose the name for His disciples in Luke 6:13. By His choice, He designates this office as being instituted by Him to be a witness of Him throughout the world, with His authority. All those who held such an office were called by Christ Himself.

However, the denomination seems, from the very beginning, to have applied, in a much wider sense, to all who ministered as colleagues of the Apostles who bore witness of Christ Jesus.

There is more about how the office can not be applied today for the above reasons, but the main fact is that when Christ sent the Apostles out, they went with His authority. When a church send someone out, they go by their authority. They are not the same.

[Guest shiloh357]

I see this as dividing scripture rightly. Jesus spoke many times about the kingdom in public, but He did not teach about being able to do the works He did. If I am wrong, which is possible, please point me to the scripture.

The basis of my questions could be seen as asking if everything that He taught to His disciples were meant to the body as a whole? I have to say no, because we are not all Apostles. We can not have all the gifts like the Apostles did. We can not walk in the same way they did, so there will be certain verses that are there to inform us of what the Apostles would do, but that is as far as it goes. If I am wrong, then there would of been real Apostles through all of His churches history, up to and including today.

So, when Jesus told the 12 about the mansions and the sending of His Spirit, did this apply to them only as well?

No. When Christ taught a subject ONLY to his disciples, I believe it was just for them. If he taught something to His disciples, and also to the rest of His followers, then it was meant for everyone.

I would not go that far. Jesus pulled His disciples away to give them a deeper understanding of what He was teaching. It was not that the teaching was only for them, but that they were, at that particular time, privy to deeper truths than what Jesus taught the masses. In addition, Jesus usually pulled them aside to endow them with special authority that they would employ after His departure.

I know this is another debate, but I am not convinced that our understanding of "apostle" is as it should be.

There is more than one kind of "apostle." Many of our modern missionaries function more lika apostles.

The original apostles of Jesus were unique and there are no apostles like them any more, as no one alive today fits the qualifications that pertained to them.