Who was Jesus speaking to?

[EricH]

The thing that I love most about the "old testament" is the stories of real people doing amazing things in faith....

The western church tends to over spiritualize the abilities of the disciples and apostles. These were plain folks in the Galilee. For these people to have "seen a great light shine upon them" (Isaiah 9) would be akin to the state of Arkansas becoming the spiritual capital of America.

Anything they can do in the Lord, we can also do....that's the point.

Being "in the Lord" is the trick.

That is not really limited to the "Western Church". Folks of all ilks tend to romanticize their heroes

[EricH]

The original Apostles of the NT, those who we know as Apostles today, not the ones who only carried the title because they were sent, all had one thing in common. They were all approached by Christ personally. They saw Jesus and was called by Him personally. This can not be said by the missionaries today, so even though they are sent, they do not hold the office of Apostleship. They would have to have the signs and miracles that accompanied the original Apostles to be them. They may be starting churches and bringing Christ to them, as the Apostles did, but they are not the same.

I know, you didn't directly say that, I just wanted to clear it up a little. What do you think an Apostle is?

But who made the rule about what denotes the office of Apostle?

Was not Barnabas considered an Apostle?

The word "apostle" simply means "messenger" Source.

I know this is another debate, but I am not convinced that our understanding of "apostle" is as it should be.

There seem to have been 2 uses of the term apostle in the New Testament. There is the broad sense (meaining simply sent one). It is used this way in the NT 3 times (Philippians 2:25, 2 Corinthians 8:23, and John 13:16). There is a more narrow sense of the word as well. In this case it seems to refer to s specific set of individuals with a unique set f responsibilities.

The qualifications are listed:

1. To have seen the risen Lord (Acts 1:221 Corinthians 9:1 etc).

2. To have been commissioned directly by Jesus Himself (Matthew 10:1-7; Acts 1:24-26. Romans 1:1, 1 Timothy 1:12 etc).

This goup of uniques indivisuals seems to have been composed of the 11 disciples, Matthias, James the brother of Jesus, Barnabas, and Paul. There may have been others as well, but we know very little about them.

Thes apostles seem to have had unique authority in the early church and were given the task of writing holy scipture.

[Independence and Freedom]

I sat in church last Wednesday and heard a preacher tell everyone that we can all stand on the verse of John 14:12, where Jesus told His disciples; "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."

When I first started in the Pentecostal church, I stood on this scripture as meaning that everyone who has the Holy Spirit in them should be able to preform all that Christ did and then more. As I matured in Him, I now see this differently.

Jesus would often take His disciples, those that He personally chose to fulfill His ministry, and taught them separately. His reasons was that what He would teach them were not for everyone to know. I have come to believe that this promise Jesus gave to the disciples is for everyone in the body.

Here is what scripture tells us, from John 14:7-14, NKJV. They were at the Lords Supper at the time Jesus spoke these words where only the disciples were there with Him.

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Philip said to Him,

[renren]

My take on this topic is that the power and authority is in the name of Jesus.

Paul was not present in the room when Jesus made the statements but He was able through Christ to do many miracles.

Also, what are we to make of these scriptures?

Luke 9:49-51 (King James Version)

49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Matthew 7:22-23 (King James Version)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I believe the power is in the name of Jesus. I also believe that the same power is available to us here today, to all christians that are willing to totally surrender to Jesus, give everything over to Him and walk in the Spirit.

But, and there is always a but,

I really am grieved by all of these preachers that profess to be able to do all of these things because it just doesnt sit right in my Spirit sometimes. Is miracles and financial properity all that matters these days?

What about reship with Jesus, carrying our cross being and learning to set our hearts on things above.

I believe that we all have different gifts and abilities but at the end of the day we all can pray and God answers prayers according to His will.

To the people who left the service in a wheelchair or who left still sick...... is everyone really supposed to be healed? Is it that absolutely no believer should die from sickness? Isnt this world temporary and this body temporary?

Also Jesus raised Lasarus from the dead. Is it His will to raise everyone from the dead? But He did it at that point in time for a specific purpose.

I believe Jesus is soverign, for those who He wants to heal He will heal, for those who He doesnt He will give the grace and strength to deal with whatever comes their way. It is all for His purpose and will.

Whoever Jesus wants to use to accomplish His purpose let it be done. I do believe that Jesus can and will use people today to accomplish whatever He wants to accomplish.

Let's all be open to the move of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit and learn to Walk in the Spirit regardless of circumstances.

[OneLight]

Well ren, the message the person gave that night was that we all, since we have the Holy Spirit, should be able to do all that Christ did, and then more. He claims that if we can't it is because we are still harboring some sort of unforgiving toward someone (always a back door to why not). To me, those who are called by Christ, and even Paul was personally called on the road to Damascus, were given the power spoken of here. They are the Apostles Christ personally called, so they go in His power, , who did signs and miracles everywhere they went. Even as much as we would like, we are not among that group. We are not Apostles. We are among the body spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12 where the Holy Spirit gives gift(s) according to His will.

[Guest yod]

The thing that I love most about the "old testament" is the stories of real people doing amazing things in faith....

The western church tends to over spiritualize the abilities of the disciples and apostles. These were plain folks in the Galilee. For these people to have "seen a great light shine upon them" (Isaiah 9) would be akin to the state of Arkansas becoming the spiritual capital of America.

Anything they can do in the Lord, we can also do....that's the point.

Being "in the Lord" is the trick.

That is not really limited to the "Western Church". Folks of all ilks tend to romanticize their heroes

Of course non-believers will do that quite naturally.

I only mention the church because, we of all people, should seek the truth over the legend.

But as a matter of accuracy, the overwhelming majority of jews didn't idolize the people in the stories of the Bible. There was no romanticizing them in the written accounts. The "heros" were presented with human flaws, warts and all.