Salvation

[improved]

I have heard that the original concept of Salvation is, first of is not just Salvation from sin, but more importantly, that once that Imputed Sin is legally removed I shouldn't expect to sin again. This directly contrasts the Gentile struggle with sin and expecting to succomb to it, while thanking God for the blanket of "Grace" (which I think is misunderstood anyways) to pretend like I don't sin anymore.

What is the original view on Salvation. I feel the "Christian" view of it is wrong.

Edited August 11, 2009 by improved

[pokemaughan]

My answer will be pretty simple and dry compared to others, but it's more or less like this-

(a.) There is a Law,

(b.) We, as fallen humans cannot feasibly uphold that Law,

(c.) The absolute non-negotiable punishment for trespassing that Law (sinning/disobeying God) is death,

(d.) God thought it good to pay the death penalty personally in place of His chosen (those who will accept the Gospel), for His glory and their good.

That's really all there is to it. Plenty of Scripture (the whole pattern of redemption laid out from cover to cover...) backs that up.

A sacrifice of blood and death must be made for the sake of our sin. God's wrath must be satisfied simply because He is a holy God. The more I understand Holy, the more I understand why things must be the way they are.

Edit: I did not read the rest of the title to your post, just now caught "Jewish". As for that, I have no idea, but I imagine for the Orthodox Jew it's works/ritual-based.

[Hunterpoet]

interesting discussion

[improved]

As far as present day Judaism is concerned there is no concept of salvation as Christians understand the word. To merit a place in the World to Come one must simply keep the Law. For Gentiles that means observing the Seven Laws of Noah.

By original, I mean 1st Century Church, which was Jewish. Did Paul teach that we would have to get "saved from sin" over and over and over again, rededicating our lives to God as we constantly do? Or did he think that we could once and for all get Sin (Original, or Imputed, Sin) legally purged from us, and also have sinful contamination and habits purged from us as well - thus relieveing us from our obsession of being defeated by sin over and over.

He tells us that we are empowered to overcome temptation (1 Cor 10:13), which leads me to believe that he thinks we can live completely sinless forever. Grace, as I have come to understand it, means empowerment for whatever God wants us to do or be, as well as to go where He wants us to. This concept of Grace seems much stronger and more powerful to overcome sin than the one that treats Grace more like a whitewash for our inevitable sins to come in spite of our "salvation".

[Ovedya]

As far as present day Judaism is concerned there is no concept of salvation as Christians understand the word. To merit a place in the World to Come one must simply keep the Law. For Gentiles that means observing the Seven Laws of Noah.

By original, I mean 1st Century Church, which was Jewish. Did Paul teach that we would have to get "saved from sin" over and over and over again, rededicating our lives to God as we constantly do? Or did he think that we could once and for all get Sin (Original, or Imputed, Sin) legally purged from us, and also have sinful contamination and habits purged from us as well - thus relieveing us from our obsession of being defeated by sin over and over.

He tells us that we are empowered to overcome temptation (1 Cor 10:13), which leads me to believe that he thinks we can live completely sinless forever. Grace, as I have come to understand it, means empowerment for whatever God wants us to do or be, as well as to go where He wants us to. This concept of Grace seems much stronger and more powerful to overcome sin than the one that treats Grace more like a whitewash for our inevitable sins to come in spite of our "salvation".

Your thoughts concerning Paul's thoughts are off. Paul was not the sole governor of church doctrine. We need to look to John for the truth concerning positional vs. dispositional salvation. Logically if it were possible to be completely free from the stain of sin John would not have written "if we do sin..." that pretty much puts an end to the issue of "sin-free salvation."

[improved]

Your thoughts concerning Paul's thoughts are off. Paul was not the sole governor of church doctrine. We need to look to John for the truth concerning positional vs. dispositional salvation. Logically if it were possible to be completely free from the stain of sin John would not have written "if we do sin..." that pretty much puts an end to the issue of "sin-free salvation."

Maybe you misunderstood my proposition; sorry if I'm not communicating well. Here are my main points:

-EVERYONE has sinned

-EVERYONE can recieve Salvation from Sin (and other things, but that isn't part of the conversation)

-EVERYONE that has recieved Salvation from the Beginning of time, has most likely committed a sin after Salvation

I think we all agree on every, single one of these points. Right? (I can imagine a resounding mix of "Right!"s, "Amen Brother!"s, "Right On!"s, and "Right-O"s from the imaginart audience) These are pretty foundational and/or experiential.

BUT:

- Was the original intent that we should be able to live a sin-free life from that point on?

Obviously we screw up. Obviously we fall under temptation from time to time. Obviously abounding mercy is a continual must.

-"If we do sin..." sounds like there is an expectation to not sin. It sounds like people DO sin, but we aren't expected to. It sounds like DON'T SIN, but there is still Mecry and Forgiveness if you do, so don't walk in fear and condemnation of it.

-Phrases like "Go and sin no more" and "Be perfect therefore, like your Father in Heaven is perfect" suggest that there might be a standard that we have lowered.

- We are no longer captive to

I just like to bounce thoughts off people, and I hope this doesn't turn ugly. I have no intention to step on toes.

P.S. Paul was just a name drop for early church figureheads; I was not suggesting that he had Supreme Dominion on doctrine. I was asking "Could people in the Early church, such as Paul [or any other figure], have possibly believed this?"

[OneLight]

I don't think we have lowered any standards. These were goals each of us have, but we also can not deny that we are still humans and will not be perfect until we are with Him. Even though 1 John tells us that we can not sin if we are in Him, he starts off with

1 John 1:5-10

Fellowship with Him and One Another

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Context is important. If we just take a verse like 1 John 3:6 "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him." without the full context of the letter, it would sound like nobody can be in Him. What is being brought forth is if one completely, 100%, abides in Christ, they will not sin. Yet, there is not one person every born, except Christ, that was able to live a sinless life.

Consider the context of it all ...

[Guest shiloh357]

BUT:

- Was the original intent that we should be able to live a sin-free life from that point on?

The Bible never indicates such.

Salvatrion occurs in three stages: Justification, Sanctifcation and Glorification. Justification is a one-time legal declaration by God that you are rightesous based upon the merit of Christ and His finished work on the cross. You are legally declared as righteous as if Adam had never sinned. It cannot be over-emphasized tha in justification, man is not "made" righteous. He is delcared righteous. Righteousness is imputed (credited to his account) by faith (Rom:4:25-26). It is imputed, not imparted righteousness. For this reason, it is not the product of any cooperation between man and God, but is based solely on Christ alone. It is HIS righteousness graciously imputed to you on the basis of your faith.

Sanctfication is both an immediate separation from darkness into light where God has separated you spiritually from the kingdom of Satan and this world's system and separated you unto Himself, AND it is a ongooing process of removing sinful habits, thoughts and lifestyles. Another way of expressing it, is that sanctification amounts to God daily conforming you more and more into the image of Christ. Sin has not been eradicated and believers may still fall in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord and that is why we continue to need His grace and the forgiveness purchased by His blood.

Glorification refers to the full and final realization of our salvation when sin will be eradicated and we will live in new bodies that will reflect His glory. It is the ultimate goal of salvation, to restore man back to where Adam was prior to the fall of mankind. It could also be said that man will restored to position BETTER than what Adam enjoyed as man will have eternal life.

The Bible says:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

(Eph 2:8-10)

It is all by grace through faith. Even the good works we perform as an outworking of our salvation are the product of His grace and enabling.

[EricH]

As far as present day Judaism is concerned there is no concept of salvation as Christians understand the word. To merit a place in the World to Come one must simply keep the Law. For Gentiles that means observing the Seven Laws of Noah.

By original, I mean 1st Century Church, which was Jewish. Did Paul teach that we would have to get "saved from sin" over and over and over again, rededicating our lives to God as we constantly do? Or did he think that we could once and for all get Sin (Original, or Imputed, Sin) legally purged from us, and also have sinful contamination and habits purged from us as well - thus relieveing us from our obsession of being defeated by sin over and over.

He tells us that we are empowered to overcome temptation (1 Cor 10:13), which leads me to believe that he thinks we can live completely sinless forever. Grace, as I have come to understand it, means empowerment for whatever God wants us to do or be, as well as to go where He wants us to. This concept of Grace seems much stronger and more powerful to overcome sin than the one that treats Grace more like a whitewash for our inevitable sins to come in spite of our "salvation".

I think Shiloh gave you a good answer. Salvation is not an event, it's a process. I have yet to meet any Christian who has attained complete freedom from all sin. OTOH, grace should never be viewed as a license to sin. That type of thinking indicates an unrepentant heart.

Maybe a more accurate description would be to say it is an evant and a process, depending on what aspet of salvation you are describing

[EricH]

As far as present day Judaism is concerned there is no concept of salvation as Christians understand the word. To merit a place in the World to Come one must simply keep the Law. For Gentiles that means observing the Seven Laws of Noah.

By original, I mean 1st Century Church, which was Jewish. Did Paul teach that we would have to get "saved from sin" over and over and over again, rededicating our lives to God as we constantly do? Or did he think that we could once and for all get Sin (Original, or Imputed, Sin) legally purged from us, and also have sinful contamination and habits purged from us as well - thus relieveing us from our obsession of being defeated by sin over and over.

He tells us that we are empowered to overcome temptation (1 Cor 10:13), which leads me to believe that he thinks we can live completely sinless forever. Grace, as I have come to understand it, means empowerment for whatever God wants us to do or be, as well as to go where He wants us to. This concept of Grace seems much stronger and more powerful to overcome sin than the one that treats Grace more like a whitewash for our inevitable sins to come in spite of our "salvation".

I think Shiloh gave you a good answer. Salvation is not an event, it's a process. I have yet to meet any Christian who has attained complete freedom from all sin. OTOH, grace should never be viewed as a license to sin. That type of thinking indicates an unrepentant heart.

Maybe a more accurate description would be to say it is an evant and a process, depending on what aspet of salvation you are describing

The event is accepting the invitation to enter the process. How's that?

Well, I think I understand what you are saying, but I think we need to be careful not to leave peope with the impression that justification is a process.