WN: Lutherans to Vote on Sexually Active Gay Clergy - Washington Post

[~candice~]

well i'm glad we finally found a way to stop the wheel from spinning, last night we were both dizzy from the circles we were going in!

<sings> I'm so dizzy my head is spinnin', like a whirlpool it never ends <\sings>

[BlindSeeker]

There is no case where God would not set anyone free from sin. He promises to do so. So the problem is with you, not God.

I figured someone would say that. If there is a problem with me that prevents God from answering my prayers in that one particular area, I would very much like to know what it is...

Maybe you dont really want deliverance. It could other things as well, or a combination of issues. But God is faithful to His Word, so there is no problem on his end.

Whatever the issue is, God is not to blame, you are.

Perhaps you don't realise how distressing it is to hear someone say this, after years of begging and pleading for the removal of these desires. Sanctification does not come instantly. Can man lead a perfect life?

Can you provide scripture?

Not to speak for Shiloh, but how about -

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

EDITED TO ADD:

Nice to see that from when I posted the above from page 21 or something with 31 pages total . . . it was nice to see so many things worked out by the time I read to the end here.

Of course . . . not everything was worked out though . . . .

But Hooray for what was!

[BlindSeeker]

Today

Edited August 23, 2009 by BlindSeeker

[~candice~]

Today

[Guest shiloh357]

There is no distinction between desire or lust and sin itself...

For the purposes of this discussion, that is true.

but there is a distinction between attraction and desire. Attraction is a temptation, a thought that you really can't control. When you dwell on that thought and allow it to take root, it becomes a desire. That is sin.

It is not a sin to be tempted. I never said it was. That is why I have been careful to avoid labeling simple temptation as sin.

Sexual attraction is not a temptation. That is what God has hardwired into His creation. The temptation occurs when we are prompted to act on that attraction in an ungodly way. It is the temptation to pervert attraction (lust, homosexual desire, etc) that one must battle against. Desire becomes sin when it creates an appetite for something that is a perversion of what God intended sexual desire to be.

However, we still have to make sure we are not providing opportunity for temptation to occur.

If all "feelings" or thoughts that lead to sin are sinful themselves, then it can't be true that God provides a way of escape.

That is not really true.

[~candice~]

and my final thought is, if you are NOT a homosexual, but just a christian whose achille's heel happens to be an abnormal attraction, then perhaps this is not something you need deliverance from. God never promised to deliver us from every temptation. He promised to deliver us from bondage.

This is what I am banging my head on a brick wall about. What is the difference between suffering from this temptation and being under bondage? If indeed you do stand under the temptation, is it still a bondage?

I have been asking over and over again (but it gets missed) whether or not God promises deliverance from this. You are right that He doesn't ever promise that we won't face temptation. But He does promise to break bonds. So which is it? Sigh.

1 John 1:8 - 10 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

We are promised to be delivered from all willful and habitual sin, but one has to have the desire to do so. And the core desire has to come from Christ dwelling within us.

Wow.

I've never realised it before, but the distinction between what is bondage and what is mere temptation might be a silly semantics debate. For some reason I have read this scripture many many many times, and missed the red bit. Unhealthy desire = unrighteous???

[nebula]

There is no case where God would not set anyone free from sin. He promises to do so. So the problem is with you, not God.

I figured someone would say that. If there is a problem with me that prevents God from answering my prayers in that one particular area, I would very much like to know what it is...

Phoenix -

Please start rebuking these "desires" or "urges" or whatever you term them.

Whenever you feel them or whenever you think about the problem, speak to it: "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! I command you homosexuality [or whatever you call it by] to bow to to Jesus!" And then start worshiping the Lord. Use your struggle to pursue deeper into the Lord. Just keep at it, and the oppression won't want to stick around.

I was delivered from an 18-year bondage to fear this way.

Prayers

[Guest shiloh357]

It is almost a waste of time trying to give you Scripture since you don't believe the Bible anyway, but here goes. The New Testament affirms that all of the OT is Scripture and is of divine origin.

How can that be when the canon of the OT was not even fixed? Where is there a list of which OT books were of divine origin? Why is Enoch quoted by Jude but not in the canon?

The OT Canon was already determined by the time of Christ. a completed canon of the Hebrew Scriptures is evident from the testimony of the "Prologue of Ecclesiasticus" going back as far 132 BC, Jesus, Philo, and Josephus.

As for Enoch... Keep in mind Paul also quoted from Pagan philosphers. That does not extend inspired status to those works, nor to the portions quoted. Paul used such writings to illustrate a didactic point using sources his audiences would be familiar with. Paul tailored his teachings to meet the need of a particular audience.

The fact that Jude quotes from Enoch is not a stamp of approval on that document. It simply spoke to the issue Enoch was addressing. That does not in any way extend inspired status to the book of Enoch. The Bible references outside documents in many places. One should not make the mistake thinking that to an endorsement of those documents.

[Guest yod]

It is almost a waste of time trying to give you Scripture since you don't believe the Bible anyway, but here goes. The New Testament affirms that all of the OT is Scripture and is of divine origin.

How can that be when the canon of the OT was not even fixed? Where is there a list of which OT books were of divine origin? Why is Enoch quoted by Jude but not in the canon?

The Torah had been "fixed" for millennia by then...and the Septuagint was fixed for over 100 years before then also. That is the list and all books now included in the Tenach were included when that statement was written.

Believing the bible is trustworthy is foundational to faith in Yeshua though. Is your status perhaps more accurately described as "non-believer"?

[Guest shiloh357]

To Shiloh and others: can we please keep this debate over the Word of God out of this thread? It is off-topic. If you wish to continue it let's transfer it to another thread preferably in the Outer Court. I'm more comfortable there.

It is your inability to trust God and His Scriptures that is the heart of the matter and is colors your rejection of the inerrancy and authority of the Bible. It further colors your rejection of what the Bible says about Homosexuality and your perverted defense of such behavior as "psychosexual." All of that stems from your extemely liberal and unbiblical stance on the Scriptures which are the pure Word of God.