Do you still go to heaven if you commit suicide?

[OneLight]

While I do believe in OSAS, I also believe that many many people believe themselves to be saved and are not. They have been given a false sense of security by a magic prayer and are not walking in the way that God has asked them to walk. People who intentionally sin, relying on OSAS, are on very very shaky ground, because their actions can demonstrate that they indeed are not saved and never were. We all sin (and sin intentionally) but sin should not have a control over us. We should be dead to it, and alive to Christ. For this reason I would never rely on OSAS when talking to someone who is considering suicide. I am not judging their salvation, because it is not my place, but I don't think it is wise to give an assurance of salvation to someone who is considering an intentional sin.

1 John 2 (NASB)

3(G)By this we know that we have come to (H)know Him, if we (I)keep His commandments.

4The one who says, "(J)I have come to (K)know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a (L)liar, and (M)the truth is not in him;

5but whoever (N)keeps His word, in him the (O)love of God has truly been perfected (P)By this we know that we are in Him:

6the one who says he (Q)abides in Him

[OneLight]

And that's not what the KJV says: James 5:19-20 (King James Version)

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Isn't this speaking of witnessing to an unbeliever and that unbeliever is saved by Jesus and is saved from death?

What would make you think this is directed to only believers?

I am not a KJV only believer. Here is a more accurate reading ...

James 5:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

How can one turn back someone who was never there? Even with the KJV, James is writing to those who will listen, Christians.

[OneLight]

I agree Andy and the problem I am having with people teaching "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" is that it teaches that works are required for Eternal Security by itself. This causes new believers to run in fear thinking daily. "Oh my God, if I lie, I will not be Saved anymore. If I steal, I will lose my Salvation." and the doubts and fears grow and grow to the point of being in despair. This kind of teaching leads people to want to commit suicide. I know because I was one of them once. Like you, I believe Faith without works is dead because the Bible teaches us that. Like you, I don't condone sin and I believe that if one is TRULY saved, they will naturally want to repent, confess, ask for forgiveness and live right in obedience to God's commands. But, the Bible doesn't say Salvation without works is dead. It says Faith without works is dead.

Luke 7:50

Then He said to the woman,

[~candice~]

Neb - you are right... they don't need an OSAS debate, but they do need to come face to face with the Living God. Can this thread be split? Or shall we all convene to one of the 36843 OSAS threads that already exist?

[~candice~]

I agree Andy and the problem I am having with people teaching "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" is that it teaches that works are required for Eternal Security by itself. This causes new believers to run in fear thinking daily. "Oh my God, if I lie, I will not be Saved anymore. If I steal, I will lose my Salvation." and the doubts and fears grow and grow to the point of being in despair. This kind of teaching leads people to want to commit suicide. I know because I was one of them once. Like you, I believe Faith without works is dead because the Bible teaches us that. Like you, I don't condone sin and I believe that if one is TRULY saved, they will naturally want to repent, confess, ask for forgiveness and live right in obedience to God's commands. But, the Bible doesn't say Salvation without works is dead. It says Faith without works is dead.

Luke 7:50

Then He said to the woman,

[OneLight]

One, do you consider yourself to believe in Calvinism?

I believe in God, scripture, and call myself a Christian. Even though tradition has place in the church, I follow Christ, not man.

[OneLight]

I guess a better question for you One is do you believe that once a person is brought to the knowledge of Jesus, believes in it, he/she is saved?

Yes.

If so, then do you believe Christians lose their Salvation because of their sinful nature?

Yes, they are in danger of doing so and some have done so.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New King James Version)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Maybe this will help us to understand what pictures we are both painting to each other. See, coz I don't believe a Christian can lose their Salvation. Do I believe we are to continue living in deliberate sin? No. But I don't believe that a Christian will go to hell because of unconfessed sin. Further, what about sin we have forgotten about and don't remember say like 20 years ago?

As I stated many times before, sins we have no knowledge of, nor have been convicted by His Spirit about, will be held against us. If He found it worthy for us to have to seek forgiveness, He would make sure we knew what they are. I do not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, as scripture above points out. We can, through our free will, turn from God. We can harden our hearts to a point of loosing our faith by continuously living in disobedience. Where in the renewing of our heart and mind then?

I also made it clear that only God will judge who will enter into His kingdom. Only Christ knows who's name is written in the Book of Life. Nobody here does. I also pointed to scripture that refutes many of what has been brought into this thread agreeing that if we take our lives that will will be guaranteed a place in eternity in Him.

Now, back to the one question that nobody has answered. Where in scripture does it tell us that if we take our life, even if we are a Christian and know it is sin, that we are guaranteed acceptance into the Kingdom? This is the OP's question and that is the focus of my answers, even though we have wandered a little here and there.

Hmm one... are you suggesting by the Heb 6 passage that those people who backslide can never be brought back to repentence? I posted an alternative explanation to that scripture which you haven't commented on yet.

Jesus died for all of our sins 2000 years ago. Are you suggesting that it is the application of this forgiveness that needs to be applied to each and every sin after we are saved? That we repent in one big bunch for all sins prior to that point, and repent one by one for sins after that point? Please clarify... if someone doesn't repent in time, are you questioning their salvation?

Ro 10 (NASB)

8But what does it say? "(K)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

My problem is that the above scripture doesn't tie salvation into forgiveness the way you are. It really appears to be a once-off thing. I am not suggesting that we don't need to repent of our sins and ask forgiveness, but I do not believe that it is a salvational issue if we don't do this in time. What is a salvational issue is making sure that we are walking in the spirit, with good fruits, demonstrating our faith. If we have this saving faith, we will be repenting of our sins anyway... and walking in a spirit of repentence and death to sin...

When one turns from God to an extent that they no longer believe, how are they once again going to believe? It is a salvation matter to those who harden their heart to that extent. They die in the sin they live in, without asking for forgiveness. Read it again, slowly. They were once a believer, enlightened with the word of salvation and tasted the sweetness of forgiveness and salvation. They also had the Holy Spirit, otherwise, how would they of been partakers of? They chose to turn away and have rejected what Christ did for them. If it was not meant for us to read and learn from, God would of never placed it in His word. Do you also see no need for Matthew 25?

Those who backslide, as I once was, still believed in their heart that Jesus is God, but just didn't want to obey. If I died at that time, no, I do not believe that I would of made it into His kingdom. Scripture tells us that if a tree does not bare fruit, it will be cut down and cast into the fire. People just don't want to think about this because it makes them feel uncomfortable. They would rather have their ears tickled with promises of a guaranteed salvation. Well, there is a guaranteed salvation, for those who continue to seek His will and obey His leading. One of the problems the church is in the condition it is in today is due to the fact that they are not reminded of their sins and repentance.

Search the scriptures and see that when ever one is told that their sins will be forgiven, sins are spoken in past tense, not future tense. I have not found once where it states future sins. Please, show me that I am wrong in scripture and I will then consider this stance concerning forgiveness of sins. Scripture continues to tell us to conform to His will in our lives, becoming holy ans He is holy. How can this be if we have sin in our lives that we have not confessed? Why would it be written that if we sin against another that we need to go and seek forgiveness from them? Why would Jesus tell us that God will forgive us as we forgive others? Once we are convicted of sin, we need to always ask for His forgiveness and repent, turn away, and with His help, continue down the straight path to the narrow gate, that few will find.

No, we aren't saying that we shouldn't repent of our sins or ask for forgiveness or confess our sins. I think the issue is that we believe in once saved, always saved as is supported Scripturally. You believe in Once Saved, Not Always Saved as is not supported Scripturally as I've listed passages above that support eternal security. There is no yard stick on sin.

I answered your PM. You have my answer, but I can put it here for all to see if you wish.

[~candice~]

Neb - you are right... they don't need an OSAS debate, but they do need to come face to face with the Living God. Can this thread be split? Or shall we all convene to one of the 36843 OSAS threads that already exist?

It doesn't have to be split. We are told to search the Scriptures. Nobody is name calling. Unless everyone is not okay with it, then I understand.

But but but.... to continue this line of thought, in a suicide thread... is like winning the battle but loosing the war. There is a place for OSAS v's OSNAS but it's not here.

[~candice~]

Neb - you are right... they don't need an OSAS debate, but they do need to come face to face with the Living God. Can this thread be split? Or shall we all convene to one of the 36843 OSAS threads that already exist?

It doesn't have to be split. We are told to search the Scriptures. Nobody is name calling. Unless everyone is not okay with it, then I understand.

But but but.... to continue this line of thought, in a suicide thread... is like winning the battle but loosing the war. There is a place for OSAS v's OSNAS but it's not here.

It's not just about suicide. We can not just take one part of God's Word without taking it as a whole. It all matters.

We still need to stay on topic. And that is, the salvation of people who commit suicide. This needs to be handled with compassion and not a theological war.

[~candice~]

Neb - you are right... they don't need an OSAS debate, but they do need to come face to face with the Living God. Can this thread be split? Or shall we all convene to one of the 36843 OSAS threads that already exist?

It doesn't have to be split. We are told to search the Scriptures. Nobody is name calling. Unless everyone is not okay with it, then I understand.

But but but.... to continue this line of thought, in a suicide thread... is like winning the battle but loosing the war. There is a place for OSAS v's OSNAS but it's not here.

It's not just about suicide. We can not just take one part of God's Word without taking it as a whole. It all matters.

We still need to stay on topic. And that is, the salvation of people who commit suicide. This needs to be handled with compassion and not a theological war.

If you would like, I will go back and delete all my posts that do not pertain to suicide.

I'm not your mother (nor am I a board mod)... it's up to you to post in a compassionate and prayerful way. What you do with your posts is your business, but I am finished here until it is split.