DOES GOD EXIST.

[Drawn]

I would like to hear anyone`s scientific evidences of the existence of God, some good hard and undeniable proofs...

Further; I would like to see how one would go about convincing the avowed and hostile atheist of these "proofs"...

Thanks...

Capt.Mike...

There are none. The box science makes isn't big enough for God.

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Sorry, but there are, many and evidential...

Ok, I don't have to "prove" God. An "atheist" (I use the quotes for a reason as there is no such thing as an atheist) has to "prove" there isn't a God.

Out of 100% of the ENTIRE knowledge of the universe- everything from how many tiles are on Wayne Gretzky's bathroom floor to what's under the smallest rock on the most distant planet, how much could one say that one knows? 1%, 2%, shoot, be brave and say 99%. So, can someone say to me that in that 99%, 98%, or even 1% about which they have not a single clue that there is no God? They can't. They must say that they don't know if there is a God in that percentage about which they are clueless. It's like saying there is no gold in China without having absolute complete knowledge about everything (and I mean everything) in China. They are, therefore, not an atheist, they are an agnostic, and require more searching. I suggest that they start with the Bible. It has stood up to the most incredible scrutiny, and has been proven to be accurate. (Might I suggest Lee Strobel's book The Case For The Real Jesus as a reference?)

I can, however, say that there is a God by simply looking at creation and saying, "There is a God because this had to be made." I can also say that there is gold in China with some VERY limited knowledge about China- all I have to do is go to China and find one jewelry store with one piece of gold in it and confidently say, "There is gold in China." I do this with God with some very limited knowledge of the universe. I know that this earth is here, and had to be created, and therefore say, "There is a Creator." There is a God.

I love my friends who are agnostic. I hang out with them, I bowl with them. (Not very well, but I still bowl) I am not commanded to hate anyone, nor am I to pass judgment on anyone. I do not have to worry about proving the existence of God- He does that just fine through His creation. What I do have to be concerned about is truthfully living out the faith which I have through Him.

May God bless you and your family, and I do love you!

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Actually, I`m talking about something a little more immediate, and useful...

Something more evident than these examples...

I was sure that someone would catch on by now...

I use it on the "heathen boards" to make a cogent point...

I've found this point to be very helpful. There is no such thing as an atheist, and therefore they have to search for truth rather than try to hide behind their "atheism". If you don't find it useful, that's okay, my feelings aren't hurt. Oh, and I did "catch on" rather quickly to what you said, which is why I took the time to thoughtfully post my answer.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Drawn

[Capnmike02]

Let me ask then, and I`m assuming that I am dealing with fellow Christians here, let me ask ;

Just what does Hebrews 11:1 mean by "Faith is the evidence of things not seen."???

Empasis upon "Evidence"...

With all due respect and humility, allow me to quote that scripture through verse 3 using both the ESV (which I use), and the KJV (the version upon which I was raised)

KJV-

1.Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2.For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3.Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

ESV-

1.Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2.For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3.By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Both versions are clear to me.

This verse is giving the definition of faith("Faith is") - believing in and hoping for those things which are not seen. This verse is not challenging us to "prove" God through any sort of scientific evidence. Who are we to try to "prove" God? The Bible clearly states that God is revealed to us through His creation. In fact, it states that, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'" Psalm 14:1

Anytime that science says that they have discovered a new species of insect, or have discovered how genetics determine how long my toenails grow before I notice them and cut them, I simply praise God that His creation functions so amazingly. Science simply proves that Creation functions in a functional way, and that does not surprise me at all. God does not make mistakes, and has an order for everything. I don't need to prove Him, He does that, and only a fool can look at Creation and say, "There is no God." I am backed up by scripture on that one.

So, as I said, with all due respect, that verse simply gives the definition of faith, it does not call for any evidence to be shown to prove the existence of God. It actually even says how the universe was made- by the word of God.

May the Lord our God richly bless you and your family!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The verse specifically says that "Faith is the ....evidence, (elengchos) of what is not seen"...

It actually says that "Faith" itself is the "evidence"...

In Greek or English...

What could that possibly mean???

Other than "Faith is the evidence"???

How can "Faith" be evidence???

We equate Faith as "belief", so how can "Faith" itself be "evidence" of anything???

Unless of course, the definition of "Faith" is not that which is commonly accepted and is really something else altogether...

So, what exactly is "Faith"...

Because, if we could examine this, we may find those "scientific evidences" that I spoke of...

[Drawn]

Let me ask then, and I`m assuming that I am dealing with fellow Christians here, let me ask ;

Just what does Hebrews 11:1 mean by "Faith is the evidence of things not seen."???

Empasis upon "Evidence"...

With all due respect and humility, allow me to quote that scripture through verse 3 using both the ESV (which I use), and the KJV (the version upon which I was raised)

KJV-

1.Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2.For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3.Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

ESV-

1.Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2.For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3.By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Both versions are clear to me.

This verse is giving the definition of faith("Faith is") - believing in and hoping for those things which are not seen. This verse is not challenging us to "prove" God through any sort of scientific evidence. Who are we to try to "prove" God? The Bible clearly states that God is revealed to us through His creation. In fact, it states that, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'" Psalm 14:1

Anytime that science says that they have discovered a new species of insect, or have discovered how genetics determine how long my toenails grow before I notice them and cut them, I simply praise God that His creation functions so amazingly. Science simply proves that Creation functions in a functional way, and that does not surprise me at all. God does not make mistakes, and has an order for everything. I don't need to prove Him, He does that, and only a fool can look at Creation and say, "There is no God." I am backed up by scripture on that one.

So, as I said, with all due respect, that verse simply gives the definition of faith, it does not call for any evidence to be shown to prove the existence of God. It actually even says how the universe was made- by the word of God.

May the Lord our God richly bless you and your family!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The verse specifically says that "Faith is the ....evidence, (elengchos) of what is not seen"...

It actually says that "Faith" itself is the "evidence"...

In Greek or English...

What could that possibly mean???

Other than "Faith is the evidence"???

How can "Faith" be evidence???

We equate Faith as "belief", so how can "Faith" itself be "evidence" of anything???

Unless of course, the definition of "Faith" is not that which is commonly accepted and is really something else altogether...

So, what exactly is "Faith"...

Because, if we could examine this, we may find those "scientific evidences" that I spoke of...

Again, with all due respect- the verse says what it says, it's very clear to me what it means. My faith that God is who He says He is is based upon the fact that He created all things. I never saw Him do it, I can't see Him. I can't physically see Him, I can't physically see His words that proceed from His mouth. I can see His word in the Bible written down and explained, but I can't physically see Him. I'm not sure how you are going to get your "scientific evidences" by trying to explain Hebrews 11. Maybe I'm not totally sure exactly what you are attempting in this thread. Are you trying to convince me that there is a God, and that He is revealed throughout all Creation? It's a noble thing to attempt, but futile because I am a believer. God is the Creator, all things were created by Him. Man is doomed to Hell because of his sin. God sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross in atonement for sin. He was raised on the third day in triumph over sin and death, hallelujah! Those who place their faith in Him and are obedient to Him will be saved.

Do you want others to provide you with scientific evidence of God, or do you already have all the evidence that you need and just want to tell us about it? If you have something to share with us, please do- I am more than happy to hear what my brothers and sisters have to say (that is Biblically sound) regarding our most holy God and our Saviour. Hebrews 11 is not asking anyone to define faith it does that for us, and is very clear in its statements. I believe, my dear sibling, and I say this out of love, that you may have over-analyzed that verse.

I am tired and have a long day tomorrow, I'm going to bed. I've stated all that I wish to state in this thread, but will follow along in it as long as it is kept viable.

I pray that our most holy God will keep you, guide you, and richly bless you! Good night.

[HAZARD]

Let me ask then, and I`m assuming that I am dealing with fellow Christians here, let me ask ;

Just what does Hebrews 11:1 mean by "Faith is the evidence of things not seen."???

Empasis upon "Evidence"...

First of all, so far from what have read, you are not a fellow Christian so that statement is about as solid as the rest of the statements you have made.

Let me ask, when you turn on the lights in your home, assuming you have one, do you usually expect them to come on?

What about when you eat food and drink water? Do you expect to eliminate the waste your body does not need, or do you store it somewhere inside?

When you start your car do you usually expect it to start?

When you dial a certain number on your phone do you expect to be conected to the number you dial or do you usually just hope you may be randomly connected to it out of the hundred of many thousnads of numbers possible?

In short, you are a BOOF-HEAD as we call people like you down under. Not an insult, just a fact!

Even Jesus Christ called people like you worse that I have. He called them Vipers, and hypocrites! and whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness, (Matt. 23:27).

Some advice, The best way to sound like you know what you're talking about is to know what you're talking about. If getting out of bed every morning is a chore and you're not making any sense on a regular basis, try another choice.

Haz.

[nebula]

The verse specifically says that "Faith is the ....evidence, (elengchos) of what is not seen"...

It actually says that "Faith" itself is the "evidence"...

In Greek or English...

What could that possibly mean???

Other than "Faith is the evidence"???

How can "Faith" be evidence???

We equate Faith as "belief", so how can "Faith" itself be "evidence" of anything???

Unless of course, the definition of "Faith" is not that which is commonly accepted and is really something else altogether...

So, what exactly is "Faith"...

Because, if we could examine this, we may find those "scientific evidences" that I spoke of...

I know in the Hebrew understanding of the word "faith" - it involves action, not belief.

I am definitely curious as to where you are going with this.

[~candice~]

Does this argument boil down to... I have faith in God, therefore God exists? Atheists won't buy that, and will quickly point out the ciruclar reasoning that you got your faith from God in the first place.

[Capnmike02]

The verse specifically says that "Faith is the ....evidence, (elengchos) of what is not seen"...

It actually says that "Faith" itself is the "evidence"...

In Greek or English...

What could that possibly mean???

Other than "Faith is the evidence"???

How can "Faith" be evidence???

We equate Faith as "belief", so how can "Faith" itself be "evidence" of anything???

Unless of course, the definition of "Faith" is not that which is commonly accepted and is really something else altogether...

So, what exactly is "Faith"...

Because, if we could examine this, we may find those "scientific evidences" that I spoke of...

I know in the Hebrew understanding of the word "faith" - it involves action, not belief.

I am definitely curious as to where you are going with this.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It`s very simple;

Now, I know that I am "saved", but how???

By persuasive argumentation, convincing speech???

No, something much deeper... You see, if my "Faith" is no more than the product of "intellectual persuasion", convincing argumentation then it rests, not upon God, God`s Word (Logos) or (Most importantly) a personal relatiionship with Christ Himself, but upon my personal state of mind...

It is mutable, changeable, it stands to reason, that if I can be "convinced" of the one, then just as easily could I be convinced of the other...

Do you see???

So, "Faith" is something much deeper than a mere "belief", "The demons believe and tremble". (James 2:19)...

My personal experience, as well as all evidence and Scripture tells me that "Faith" well transcends mere belief...

I have found that there are three steps to Faith, they are Hebrews 11:6, Romans 10:17 and James 2:14-26...

The first step is ours, we seek God, believing that He will reward us for doing so...

At that point in our initial search for God, that "reward" mentioned in verse 6 is very simply, an answer from God, an acknowledgement of His existence, a fulfillment of our need to know, would you agree???

And He gives that (Or rather, he did so in my case), He manifests Himself to us in that initial Salvation experience...

It was beyond mere emotion, it was Spiritually moving, profound, and beyond that experience no one could ever convince me that I had not actually stood withing the very Presence of God and communed with Him in Spirit, no one could or can ever tell me, convince or persuade me that I have not experienced Salvation at the Hands of God Himself...

Do we agree thus far???

This step, the "reception" is the second step of "Faith", it is the "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word (Rhemati) of God"... This step is beyond us in any effort other than simply being there, which comes with the first, Hebrews 11:6...

But, "Faith" is not complete without action, it is not fulfilled until put into practice...

And so, you carry out your "orders from God" whatever they might be... You put your "Faith" into action...

But, you become an addict, you want more of God (And if you do not, then I can safely say that you have`nt really come to know Him.) and so you come again before the Throne and bask in the Presence of Messiah, you again recieve, and go out to dispense this "New Wine", and "Oil of the Spirit"...

And as you feel your cup running dry, your oil used up, you constantly return to that place, before His Throne... And He consistently responds, yet each time with more, because as you walk in His Presence, you grow, you become responsible for more...

Now, whether or not any here agree with me, I don`t really care, because I know "experientially" that this is the simplicity of "Faith" and the core of Christianity, an ongoing, live and personal relationship with God through Jesus the Christ and actuated by His Holy Spirit...

I`ve been living and preaching, evangelizing and teaching for years, I know the Scriptures well enough to back up everything that I say here while keeping all in context, and if any here do not have such a relationship and their "beliefs" are nothing more than the product of mere "intellectual persuasion", then I adjure you to seriously seek God...

Forgive the digression, and please only take this personally if under conviction???

I`ve said this to make an illustration.

Does anyone sense a parallel here between these "steps of Faith" and "Scientific investigation"???

First, you form the "hypothesis", "Is it true, is it possible that God exists.?"

You begin the search for "evidence", you read, speak with others and gather enough data in order that said "hypothesis" now morphs into "theory"... But now, "theory" must be tried, proven...

And so, the "experiment"... You provide the "stimulus" (Prayer), and you persist...

It pays off, the "experiment" succeeds, you receive a "reaction", A Word from God, but is it really???

It must be further conducted and so you perform that "Word"...

It proves true, and so, you repeat the process, time and again, proving to yourself and your fellows that; Yes, God not only exists but he intervenes in mortal affairs...

But, that is only personal proof, preaching to the choir now, and you need something to stymie the hostile unbeliever...

In a court of Law, how many witnesses would it take for a conviction??? When proofing old documents how many extant copies does it take for verification???

How many "Christians" worldwide have gone through the exact same process as I`ve described here, and received the exact same results???

Even throughout History, we have written accounts by men of God who have experienced the same, and it would be impossible, even ludicrous to think, that there has been collusion or collaboration on their part... Many do not even speak the same languge, and quite a few are (As was I) isolated from any psychological influences... In other words, it`s ridiculous to even imply some sort of mass delusion...

No, they may not receive, and in fact, in my recent experiences they contend the matter always devolving to that position of mere intellectual persuasion and projecting such upon us and our Christian experience as though we operated under the same worldly rules and premises...

But, that does`nt stop me from telling them...

My (late) Father in Law, was an avowed humanist and debated and argued with me constantly... But through this, we developed a mutual bond, and so much so that I actually missed his jibes and barbs when he became ill and wrote a letter to that effect...

As the disease that stole his strength and wracked his body progressed, he began to consider our conversations and those words that I had spoken through God`s prompting, and not very long after his incapacitation, he came to know Jesus The Christ as his Lord and Saviour...

So, I don`t really care if they argue, or if they insult, demean, denigrate and disparage...

Just as long as they hear... They`ll think on it eventually...

Thanks for allowing me to flesh this out, I`d so far had not said it all in one piece...

Capt.Mike...

[Capnmike02]

Let me ask then, and I`m assuming that I am dealing with fellow Christians here, let me ask ;

Just what does Hebrews 11:1 mean by "Faith is the evidence of things not seen."???

Empasis upon "Evidence"...

First of all, so far from what have read, you are not a fellow Christian so that statement is about as solid as the rest of the statements you have made.

Let me ask, when you turn on the lights in your home, assuming you have one, do you usually expect them to come on?

What about when you eat food and drink water? Do you expect to eliminate the waste your body does not need, or do you store it somewhere inside?

When you start your car do you usually expect it to start?

When you dial a certain number on your phone do you expect to be conected to the number you dial or do you usually just hope you may be randomly connected to it out of the hundred of many thousnads of numbers possible?

In short, you are a BOOF-HEAD as we call people like you down under. Not an insult, just a fact!

Even Jesus Christ called people like you worse that I have. He called them Vipers, and hypocrites! and whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness, (Matt. 23:27).

Some advice, The best way to sound like you know what you're talking about is to know what you're talking about. If getting out of bed every morning is a chore and you're not making any sense on a regular basis, try another choice.

Haz.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, at least you`re partially right...

That is that you and I are certainly not "fellow Christians", but who has the deeper draft before God remains yet to be seen...

I really did`nt expect such negativity on such a site as this, don`t you think that you`d be a bit more comfortable on the "Do You Believe" board...

I`ll send a link if you wish, Digger...

[nebula]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It`s very simple;

Now, I know that I am "saved", but how???

By persuasive argumentation, convincing speech???

No, something much deeper... You see, if my "Faith" is no more than the product of "intellectual persuasion", convincing argumentation then it rests, not upon God, God`s Word (Logos) or (Most importantly) a personal relatiionship with Christ Himself, but upon my personal state of mind...

It is mutable, changeable, it stands to reason, that if I can be "convinced" of the one, then just as easily could I be convinced of the other...

Do you see??? . . . .

Yes, I do. Thank-you!

That was a very interesting insight and way of expressing things.

(I'm into the sciences BTW.)

And the testimony you shared brought a tear to my eye.

[Drawn]

Let me ask then, and I`m assuming that I am dealing with fellow Christians here, let me ask ;

Just what does Hebrews 11:1 mean by "Faith is the evidence of things not seen."???

Empasis upon "Evidence"...

First of all, so far from what have read, you are not a fellow Christian so that statement is about as solid as the rest of the statements you have made.

Let me ask, when you turn on the lights in your home, assuming you have one, do you usually expect them to come on?

What about when you eat food and drink water? Do you expect to eliminate the waste your body does not need, or do you store it somewhere inside?

When you start your car do you usually expect it to start?

When you dial a certain number on your phone do you expect to be conected to the number you dial or do you usually just hope you may be randomly connected to it out of the hundred of many thousnads of numbers possible?

In short, you are a BOOF-HEAD as we call people like you down under. Not an insult, just a fact!

Even Jesus Christ called people like you worse that I have. He called them Vipers, and hypocrites! and whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness, (Matt. 23:27).

Some advice, The best way to sound like you know what you're talking about is to know what you're talking about. If getting out of bed every morning is a chore and you're not making any sense on a regular basis, try another choice.

Haz.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, at least you`re partially right...

That is that you and I are certainly not "fellow Christians", but who has the deeper draft before God remains yet to be seen...

I really did`nt expect such negativity on such a site as this, don`t you think that you`d be a bit more comfortable on the "Do You Believe" board...

I`ll send a link if you wish, Digger...

Okaaaaaaayyyyy...... Hmm, well, alrighty then. I'm done arguing here. If you want to try and continue this thought, please start a new thread. May our God richly bless you and your family.

Referring back to the ORIGINAL post (and why this thread was started in the first place)- I thought the story was funny, and lets us all laugh and enjoy fellowship together. On a similar thought, I saw a bumper sticker today that said, "God doesn't believe in atheists". Now, I thought that was FUNNY!