THE FALLING AWAY

[whatsitmean]

2 Thessalonians 2:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Governments don't hold back the mystery of iniquity. They ARE the biggest part of the iniquity in the world.

There is another view that some pre-tribers hold about this. That is the restrainer is Jesus the mediator of the Church. He makes intercession for us until the Father tells Him it is time to bring the Bride home. At that point the body of believers is taken out of the world and since it is no longer necessary for Him to intercede, Satan is free to advance his kingdom. At that point Jesus becomes the avenger of blood, and the 70th week begins.

The Holy Spirit continues to convince the world of sin and many see the error they have made and repent. These are the saints that are persecuted, that Satan makes war with and overcomes. They are unwilling to give their lives to the Lord now, but they know and believe the Bible well enough to recognize the anti-Christ. They won't accept Christ TODAY but they will refuse the mark of the beast. They become saved, but are not part of the Church.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

2 Thessalonians 2:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

Governments don't hold back the mystery of iniquity.

[whatsitmean]

Like most people here, I have been around the block on this before and I respect your position Jedi4Yahweh. My personal opinion on this has come to that there are reputable scholars on both sides and in the middle. That makes it very difficult for the average person to have any real certainty on the issue.

Perhaps it is that our translations are too imprecise to make a clear and conclusive case for any scenario. You can say Matt 24:29-31 refers to the rapture at the end of the tribulation but I say it is a gathering of the very few of those who survive it. And so it goes with the whole discussion.

God uses other methods besides prophetic utterances to convey messages in His word and one of these is types or models. The most common one used for the pre-tribbers is Enoch or/and Noah. I think these are valid but you wouldn't. I am not aware of any model for a post tribulation rapture. Are you?

I was considering the Book of Joshua some time ago. It has many parallels to the book of Revelation. (I could furnish a list with a little digging.) So I thought, if there really is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture, could there be a model of it in that book. Yes there is. A very good one in the case of Rahab.

I imagined myself sitting on a distant hill watching the march around Jericho and hearing the trumpets on that final day. Rahab, a gentile woman of great faith represents the church, living in but having separated herself in obedience to the covenant she made, from the doomed city.

Then, at the final trumpet and with a great shout, the entire wall collapses, except the small portion which supports her house. If you try to play that like a video in your mind, one minute she is living door to door with the unsaved, and the next, she is in what would now be equivalent to a solitary tower high above the destruction going on below.

Jos 6:22 But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot's house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her.

There is also another group that is 'saved' in the book of Joshua. They are the inhabitants of Gibeon. These are in my opinion a perfect example of the saints who come out of the tribulation. They have a kind of faith but it is dishonest. They live to the last moment in rebellion and are no different than the rest of the doomed world. Their motive to be saved is out of no real trust of God like Rahab, but simply a rickety fire escape. They become servants of Israel. Rahab becomes a member of the house hold of faith and part of the Messianic line.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Whatsitmean,

God uses other methods besides prophetic utterances to convey messages in His word and one of these is types or models. The most common one used for the pre-tribbers is Enoch or/and Noah. I think these are valid but you wouldn't. I am not aware of any model for a post tribulation rapture. Are you?

I was considering the Book of Joshua some time ago. It has many parallels to the book of Revelation. (I could furnish a list with a little digging.) So I thought, if there really is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture, could there be a model of it in that book. Yes there is. A very good one in the case of Rahab.

I agree with you about "types or models", but one must be very careful about these because it is completely possible and often happens that we "spiritualize" the text so badly that it can mean just about anything we want it to mean.

If you want a model for the book of Revelation, it is found in a picture of Moses delivering the Hebrews from the bonds of Pharoah in Egypt. We are shown the "great tribulation" in the plagues that came upon Egypt. We can see that once the Hebrews "crossed over" the Red Sea, that God's wrath was poured out upon the Egyptians.

From this story also we can see that the Hebrews were divinely protected during the plagues - the blood above the doors - the blood of Christ and being sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Hebrews did not "escape" these plagues, but lived through them, even though Pharoah put heavier burdens upon them - just as the Beast wages war against the saints by requiring everyone to take "the Mark". They could not buy or sell - which means living in the streets. Fortunately we shall have a shelter to go to the world knows nothing about and that is under the spread wings of our Lord.

Consider most carefully that Jesus said as long as we are in the world we shall have tribulation. Another type of the "great tribulation" came in the destruction of Jerusalem. Most of the disciples were were still around, but the Lord had forewarned them to flee when they saw certain things occuring. Again the saints were divinely protected, although all but one, apparently eventually underwent horrific deaths - remember that Revelation says: "They overcame through the word of their testimony and the blood of the Lamb, and they loved not their lives, even unto death. This is what the disciples went through in the first century, and what the saints of God will go through immediately prior to the Lord's 2nd advent.

All the Epistles teach that we are to prepare for "trials and tribulations". That we should be strong in the strength of His might. That we should stand and not be shaken when we see these things come upon the whole world. This sure doesn't sound like the Apostles were trying to prepare us for "escape" as taught by a pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Several years ago in a debate on this subject, I was flat-out told that teaching any other doctrine than a pre-trib rapture position was NOT a good evangelical tool, because people did not want to "hear" that by coming to Christ they were setting up themselves for persecution. I was absolutely flabbergasted. Regardless of what the scriptures say, people will ONLY accept what "tickles their ears", and that is what the pre-trib doctrine is all about.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[whatsitmean]

Hi Ernie, Should you try to answer the question of the thread?

It is about the "restrainer" in 2 Th. 2:7.

[eric]

I think that DadE and Jedi had answered the question of the thread quite adequately, but of course I would say that (you say ) because I'm post trib'

cheers.

[Guest idied2]

I agree with you about "types or models", but one must be very careful about these because it is completely possible and often happens that we "spiritualize" the text so badly that it can mean just about anything we want it to mean.

Dad Ernie AMEN

This statement speaks volums to me.

The signs of the times are seen in the flesh.

The SPIRIT can tell us what it means.

But sometimes the flesh can to.

If a person is briskly walking toward you with a 44 magnum pointed at you: cursing at you. The flesh would tell you to run and hide. Now unless the SPIRIT of GOD told you in an audible voice to stand your ground: you won't be harmed. I doubt very much that you would listen to your own mind to stand your ground. unless the spirit the LORD put in you was like the spirit of steven. Bold unto death.

That is why I was saying. That the topic of this thread. He who restrains. sounds like police. Law inforcements of the world. Take them out of the way. The world becomes anarchy. Especially if the way you took the hirelings out of the way, was taking their food and water supply away from them and everyone else. Causing everyone who doesn't have the true spirit of CHRIST to become violent and hatefull.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug:

[whatsitmean]

So at some time all the police forces in the world are going to be taken out of the way? Like they quit or something?

[Adstar]

I don't think the times of the beasts rule will be times of anarchy, just the opposite. The control of the population via the mark of the beast suggests the exact opposite to anarchy. Supreme power in the hands of the anti-christ does not sound like anarchy to me. Although it will be a very violent time it will be violence controlled by the center not by the masses.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[whatsitmean]

Greetings Whatsitmean,

God uses other methods besides prophetic utterances to convey messages in His word and one of these is types or models. The most common one used for the pre-tribbers is Enoch or/and Noah. I think these are valid but you wouldn't. I am not aware of any model for a post tribulation rapture. Are you?

I was considering the Book of Joshua some time ago. It has many parallels to the book of Revelation. (I could furnish a list with a little digging.) So I thought, if there really is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture, could there be a model of it in that book. Yes there is. A very good one in the case of Rahab.

I agree with you about "types or models", but one must be very careful about these because it is completely possible and often happens that we "spiritualize" the text so badly that it can mean just about anything we want it to mean.

Your pre-text here serves you well to both politely put down the person you are addressing (or at least effectively discredit what they have said) and at the same time elevate yourself to a position of superior authority.

If you want a model for the book of Revelation, it is found in a picture of Moses delivering the Hebrews from the bonds of Pharoah in Egypt. We are shown the "great tribulation" in the plagues that came upon Egypt. We can see that once the Hebrews "crossed over" the Red Sea, that God's wrath was poured out upon the Egyptians.

I said nothing about a