can salvation be lost?

[kross]

Many scripture have been given to support that people can leave the will of God, on their own choice, yet, you say that it is God who changes their will, so in fact, you are saying that God has changed their heart so they will turn from God. That is a blatant lie. He gave His Son so that all will turn to Him.

This is what I referred to with regard to twisting, mis-understanding what I stated.

Just for clarification, I did not say GOD changes their will so they will turn away. I said GOD changes their will so they will turn to him. HE doesn't have to do anything for men to turn away. That is the nature of man.

If GOD changes the nature of a man to be drawn to HIM, HE will never change that nature back again.

Peace

Thank you for clearing this up. I am glad to see that you believe the same as I do on this matter, that God will not turn anyone away. I have to ask, if God changes the will of men to turn to Him, why does the Holy Spirit convict people? Why doesn't He just change the will of everyone, since Christ died so that the world, through Him, might be saved? I believe that through the conviction of ones sins, man seeks forgiveness when they finally have their eyes opened. We can not save ourselves out of anything, yet we are given the choice to accept salvation through Christ or not.

What is it that you think conviction is? A man, in his fallen nature, will have no conviction of his sins. It is when the nature of a man is changed, from rejecting GOD to desiring HIM, that he is suddenly faced with the reality of his sin. This turning may be slow or it may be instant, each of us who are saved are saved in the fullness of HIS time.

Again, the difference in doctrinal foundation comes into play when questions of why GOD allows some to go to hell is asked. Since you come from a completely different point of reference than I do, a different foundational doctrine, my answer to that question would be rejected out of hand. Just as certainly as we would have to completely different answers as to why GOD created the world and man in the first place.

You believe that every person has a free will and that they all have an equal possibility and ability to choose GOD or reject HIM. I believe that man is totally fallen, his will is captive to sin, Satan, and his own flesh and that there is no part of a man that will choose GOD.

For you, salvation is a choice that we make based on what would have to be an equal effort by the HOLY SPIRIT to save each person. (Since it would be unfair for GOD to put forth more effort to save one than HE does another) Some will reject and some will accept.

For me, salvation is an act of GOD to change the nature of those whom HE has chosen from before the foundation of the Earth. HE exerts a very real, supernatural effort in the salvation of HIS people. HE never fails to save anyone HE sets out to save. In short, HE plows the ground, HE removes the rocks, HE prepares the soil to recieve the seed. One comes along and plants seeds, one waters those seeds, but it is GOD who gives the increase. It is GOD who determines which seeds grow.

For me, I find a great deal of gratitude in GOD not leaving my salvation up to me. That HE chose me is to wonderful to understand. Thus, HE will also not unchoose me (just to bring this back to the OP.)

[Smalcald]

It is a good thing that God exists only in the eternal now, the past is dead, the future exists only in our minds.

[kross]

If GOD changes the nature of a man to be drawn to HIM, HE will never change that nature back again.

If God changes the nature of a man, then the man is no longer a man. Our nature is what we are. We have a human nature. Our nature is fallen, and it can be restored, but it can never be changed. As human beings we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are created to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him. After we were made, God looked upon us and saw that we were good. The nature of man has not changed. The devil cannot make man do anything. All sin is by choice. God cannot will sin, nor can He will a man to sin. In fact, He wills the exact opposite. And He offers and gives every grace that men ask for to help refrain from sinning. The sin nature is still the nature of man, who has a rational human soul, and who is descended from the first man who spurned the preternatural gifts God bestowed upon him, gifts which alone made him good.

And thus is the difference in foundational doctrines. You feel man's nature did not change with the fall. I feel the very essence of what a man was is completely lost. His spirit which was once alive is now completely dead. His will, which was free to choose good or evil, is now a captive to sin and Satan and is only free when GOD sets it free. The very nature of a man is completely different when he has a living spirit as opposed to a dead one.

Only two men ever walked the Earth with a free will from their beginning, Adam and JESUS. Adam made the choice that brought sin and death with HIS free will, JESUS walked sinless and perfect with HIS. (probably because HE didn't have a wife to tempt HIM. LOL)

Since we start at such completely divergent points, we can not hope to come the same conclusion.

[kross]

If someone keeps the faith to the end, it proves they are among the Elect.

If someone does not keep the faith to the end, it proves they were never among the Elect.

On this we all agree.

That you know for certain you are among the Elect means that you believe you have omniscient powers, that you believe you know the future, that you know for a fact that you will never turn your back on God, even in the face of the most gruesome tortures.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch was torn limb from limb by wild beasts.

Tell me that you are absolutely 100% certain will never falter in the face of wild beasts.

Saint Lawrence was thrown onto a giant BBQ and roasted alive.

Tell me you are absolutely 100% certain you will not falter when you feel the searing heat on your flesh.

Saint Peter was crucified upside down.

Tell me your faith will hold absolutely 100% firm as you feel the iron nails rip through your hands.

Tell me that you know for a 100% absolute infallible inerrant fact that you will not lose your faith at some future time when your comforts are all gone and the Enemy torments your body and afflicts your spirit.

You cannot know this.

You can only hope and pray that when the time comes God will grant you the grace to persevere to the end.

What you are forgetting is that He does not owe you anything.

He does not owe you salvation just because you once upon a time put your faith in Him.

No, HE doesn't owe anything. But HE has promised to keep us.

IN the doxology of Jude it states, " Now unto HIM who is able to keep you frm falling and to present you blameless before the throne..." So scripture clearly establishes HE is able to keep you from falling. The only real question then becomes, Do you think HE is willing to keep you from falling?

[leoxiii]

The only real question then becomes, Do you think HE is willing to keep you from falling?

Now you are getting it.

Will God keep someone from falling who desires to turn away from Him?

Do you no longer have free will once you put your faith in Christ?

[leoxiii]

If GOD changes the nature of a man to be drawn to HIM, HE will never change that nature back again.

If God changes the nature of a man, then the man is no longer a man. Our nature is what we are. We have a human nature. Our nature is fallen, and it can be restored, but it can never be changed. As human beings we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are created to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him. After we were made, God looked upon us and saw that we were good. The nature of man has not changed. The devil cannot make man do anything. All sin is by choice. God cannot will sin, nor can He will a man to sin. In fact, He wills the exact opposite. And He offers and gives every grace that men ask for to help refrain from sinning. The sin nature is still the nature of man, who has a rational human soul, and who is descended from the first man who spurned the preternatural gifts God bestowed upon him, gifts which alone made him good.

And thus is the difference in foundational doctrines.

No. This is the difference in the proper use of words. If the nature of something changes then that something is no longer that something. If the nature of man is changed, then man is no longer man. That is a crucial point for understanding who and what Christ is. For example: He is both God and man: two Natures. If the divine and the human are so thoroughly mixed that they become a new Nature, then He is neither God nor man, but something completely different.** So it is with man, as well. If our nature is thoroughly changed, then we are no longer men.

**Many heresies arose in the early Church concerning this point of Christology, and had to be corrected by the Ecumenical Councils.

[leoxiii]

Once again Shiloh, Amen.

There is no biblical example of a true Christian who left the faith or "lost" their salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized [cf. Mark 16:16], he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

If GOD changes the nature of a man to be drawn to HIM, HE will never change that nature back again.

If God changes the nature of a man, then the man is no longer a man. Our nature is what we are. We have a human nature. Our nature is fallen, and it can be restored, but it can never be changed. As human beings we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are created to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him. After we were made, God looked upon us and saw that we were good. The nature of man has not changed. The devil cannot make man do anything. All sin is by choice. God cannot will sin, nor can He will a man to sin. In fact, He wills the exact opposite. And He offers and gives every grace that men ask for to help refrain from sinning. The sin nature is still the nature of man, who has a rational human soul, and who is descended from the first man who spurned the preternatural gifts God bestowed upon him, gifts which alone made him good.

And thus is the difference in foundational doctrines.

No. This is the difference in the proper use of words. If the nature of something changes then that something is no longer that something. If the nature of man is changed, then man is no longer man. That is a crucial point for understanding who and what Christ is. For example: He is both God and man: two Natures. If the divine and the human are so thoroughly mixed that they become a new Nature, then He is neither God nor man, but something completely different.** So it is with man, as well. If our nature is thoroughly changed, then we are no longer men.

**Many heresies arose in the early Church concerning this point of Christology, and had to be corrected by the Ecumenical Councils.

God does not control our will. God has always given man his choice in all matters of life and death. God does not force us to follow nor to continue to follow him. God does not take over your mind or will in any way...he only guides us and convicts when we are off course. Satan can not control your mind, he can only tempt and persuade you to do what is evil and sinful. Man is in complete control of his will and mind. We are free to sin or do what is righteous. We have the choice to follow Christ or deny him at any point in our relationship with God. This is essential what separates Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinism does not believe in free will. If you believe that man has no choice in his salvation then God is essential sending people to hell with out their choice to be tormented for eternity. Does this sound like a righteous and fair God, to you? How can God fairly judge people for things they had no control over?

[kross]

The only real question then becomes, Do you think HE is willing to keep you from falling?

Now you are getting it.

Will God keep someone from falling who desires to turn away from Him?

Do you no longer have free will once you put your faith in Christ?

The desire to turn away from HIM would be falling.

Does GOD love you enough to be willing to do what scripture says HE is able to do?

Do you really want to have your own way? Is it important that you have "Free Will" rather than "GOD's Will". I pray everyday that GOD's will be done and I believe HE answers that prayer. I gave HIM my life and I know HE will not toss it aside. It is HIS to do with as HE chooses, but I trust HIM not to toss it aside. That is HIS promise after all.

[Arthur Durnan]

So I guess that if one has "lost his everlasting salvation," (which is the only kind Jesus Christ offers), then one never had everlasting salvation in the first place. One surely only possessed "temporal salvation." Those who have "lost" their everlasting salvation (received at their new birth in Christ), why not tell us how many times you've been saved, then "re-lost", then "re-saved", then "re-lost" on into the night. It'd be kinda interesting, no?

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your "sealing" Your Own "until the Day of Redemption"!