Confession

[leoxiii]

(Barnes)(Henry)(Wesley)

"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. ... Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Saint Ignatius, Third Bishop of Antioch, disciple of the Apostle John, "Epistle to the Smyrnians," ch. 8, c. A.D. 110.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation, ... 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. (KJV)

Leader:-

G2233

ἡγέομαι

hēgeomai

hayg-eh'-om-ahee

Middle voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of G71; to lead, that is, command (with official authority); figuratively to deem, that is, consider: - account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

Main Entry: prel

[leoxiii]

The issue of course is what does that have to do with the Roman Catholic Church?

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who ... assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. ... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

Saint Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon, France, "Against Heresies," Book III, ch. 3, c. A.D. 180.

[Smalcald]

I deleted my post as I realized we would just go down this road and it is Sunday and we are called to be Christians and followers of Christ regardless of how we disagree.

I don't deny that the Christian Church was one for some time and we can see that from some of the early writings you posted. But of course the Bishop of Lyon would have had a much different view than the Bishops in Asia minor. Why is it that the Eastern Churches did not appoint a Pope when they split with the Western Churches? The greatest historical challenge for the unbroken apostolic lineage idea for the Roman Catholic Church is the ongoing and historical existence of the Eastern Church which can lay claim to the same succession and possibly even a stronger claim given that the first Christian Churches were all established in the Middle East.

Anyway peace to you on this matter I hope you fully invigorate your fellow Roman Catholics to truly embrace their faith and understand their faith and its calling to Christ. That sort of Apostolic succession will always be a sticking point for me and most Protestants. We believe that our leaders have the exact same succession authority directly from the Apostles also.

[pokemaughan]

I just have a problem with these Catholics saying that because I'm not part of the Roman Catholic church, I'm not saved. That's not what the Word says- salvation is of faith, blood, and Spirit. Not of organization or cult.

[leoxiii]

I just have a problem with these Catholics saying that because I'm not part of the Roman Catholic church, I'm not saved. That's not what the Word says- salvation is of faith, blood, and Spirit. Not of organization or cult.

No offense intended.

[Massorite]

The issue of course is what does that have to do with the Roman Catholic Church?

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who ... assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. ... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

Saint Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon, France, "Against Heresies," Book III, ch. 3, c. A.D. 180.

So what happened to the Jerusalem Church? It was started be Christ Himself. Wasn't that church great and more ancient then the church at Rome? Wasn't Jesus an even more glorious man of God then Paul and Peter? Do you think that Paul and Peter would like that they and the Church at Rome are given more Praise then their Messiah and the church He created are given.

You see the problem here is that we have forgotten where we came from. The Catholic church was and is not the only church. Besides the church at Jerusalem there are 7 churches mentioned in the book of Revelation and none of them are named Rome and we know that the book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 AD. So by this we know that the Jerusalem church was more then 100 years old and the church at Rome was still not established. It existed but it was not great less ancient then the church in Jerusalem yet the Catholic church doesn't give any credit or recognition to the church that Jesu started at all.

We have forgotten where we came from and it wasn't the Universal Church. The word Ephesus in the book of Revelation means "Disirable one" and that is the church we came from. And that is the church we need to go back to because that is the church That Jesus is coming back for.

[leoxiii]

The issue of course is what does that have to do with the Roman Catholic Church?

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who ... assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. ... To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

Saint Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon, France, "Against Heresies," Book III, ch. 3, c. A.D. 180.

So what happened to the Jerusalem Church? It was started be Christ Himself. Wasn't that church great and more ancient then the church at Rome? Wasn't Jesus an even more glorious man of God then Paul and Peter? Do you think that Paul and Peter would like that they and the Church at Rome are given more Praise then their Messiah and the church He created are given.

You see the problem here is that we have forgotten where we came from. The Catholic church was and is not the only church. Besides the church at Jerusalem there are 7 churches mentioned in the book of Revelation and none of them are named Rome and we know that the book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 AD. So by this we know that the Jerusalem church was more then 100 years old and the church at Rome was still not established. It existed but it was not great less ancient then the church in Jerusalem yet the Catholic church doesn't give any credit or recognition to the church that Jesu started at all.

We have forgotten where we came from and it wasn't the Universal Church. The word Ephesus in the book of Revelation means "Disirable one" and that is the church we came from. And that is the church we need to go back to because that is the church That Jesus is coming back for.

Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Rome is not in Asia.

Apocalypse 1:11 Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

No mention of Jerusalem here, even though Jerusalem is in Asia.

[pokemaughan]

No offense intended.

I know, you think you're standing for truth. But you're standing for lies, and that's repulsive.

[leoxiii]

No offense intended.

I know, you think you're standing for truth. But you're standing for lies, and that's repulsive.

Ditto.