Predestination

[~candice~]

I have not yet begun to argue! However, I just know for certain that there will not be a definitive answer at the end of this discussion! So is it worth it? If we keep ourselves on track and you don't call me an airhead all the time, I guess it could be fun! (private joke folks, don't get your nickers in a twist please!)

:24:

I'll play nice .

What way do you lean at the moment?

[Fez]

So let me answer your question with a question/s. God is sovereign, He knows all, present and past. Can His will be thwarted? If it can is He sovereign? The answer must be no if He can be thwarted, therefore the answer must be yes, because He is sovereign, and if He is sovereign, predestination exists in its entirety!

When we then consider the relationship of our God to a fallen world, we are faced with basically four options:-

1 God could decide to provide no opportunity for anyone to be saved

2 God could provide an opportunity for all to be saved

3 God could intervene directly and insure the salvation of all people

4 God could intervene directly and insure the salvation of some people

Most Christians rule out the first option, and the third. We then face the problem that God saves some and not all. Calvinists answer with the fourth option. Their view teaches that God actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to make sure they are saved. Of course the rest are invited to Christ and given an opportunity to be saved if they want to. But Calvinism also teaches that left to themselves without Gods intervention, no one will ever choose Christ.

This is the crux of the argument concerning predestination!

Make sense?

[~candice~]

Fez, are you a calvie?

I think that God provided a way of salvation for all people, and that sadly not all (are drawn to / respond to) that offer.

And to answer your question ... God's will can't be thwarted, no. But sometimes it is His decretive will in operation, sometimes His preceptive will. God's will is thus sometimes to allow man's free will decisions to be left to manifest their full consequences (lack of salvation).

[Fez]

Fez, are you a calvie?

I think that God provided a way of salvation for all people, and that sadly not all (are drawn to / respond to) that offer.

And to answer your question ... God's will can't be thwarted, no. But sometimes it is His decretive will in operation, sometimes His preceptive will. God's will is thus sometimes to allow man's free will decisions to be left to manifest their full consequences (lack of salvation).

No andy, I am not, and you need to excuse my reasonings? For they are but the beginning of a journey I am taking into predestination, free will and coincidence. And so far I agree with your above statement

[~candice~]

Fez, are you a calvie?

I think that God provided a way of salvation for all people, and that sadly not all (are drawn to / respond to) that offer.

And to answer your question ... God's will can't be thwarted, no. But sometimes it is His decretive will in operation, sometimes His preceptive will. God's will is thus sometimes to allow man's free will decisions to be left to manifest their full consequences (lack of salvation).

No andy, I am not, and you need to excuse my reasonings? For they are but the beginning of a journey I am taking into predestination, free will and coincidence. And so far I agree with your above statement

Fez, I am enjoying this so far. And, I dare not call you an airhead while you are agreeing with me .

If God's will can be thwarted, doesn't that remove one of the abilities that make Him God? I am finding sovereignty and being all-knowing and all-powerful to be inseparable.

[Fez]

And this is not just a Calvinist problem.

Every Christian needs to feel the weight of the decision they have to take.

We first have to face the question

[Openly Curious]

I like the last choice!

Is it not God's desire for all to be saved?

I disagree Nebula. God predestined everyone who has ever been born into this world all has been predestined through Christ to be saved. But not all will recieve Christ as their Saviour and it is for that reason alone that not all will be saved. It is not the will of God that any should perish but have everlasting life.

The OT saints had to abide by the Jewish laws seperated unto them as they all looked for Christ's coming as they was also predestined in Christ to be saved but we know from scripture that many of the OT people rejected God and served idols and you can see the people going across the desert on their way to the promise land how they rejected God. Not all will remain faithful to God but it is his will that all will come willingly an accept him as Saviour. All of us before the foundation of the world was predestined in Christ even all of us was formed in the womb by God himself.

Romans 8:30--Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: an whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5--Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

oc

[Jeremiah Joel]

If God did not want man to sin then he would not have given a law to man. Most all that I have talked to believe that God knows everything that will take place. This means then that he knew that Adam and Eve would fall by him giving a law. He also knew that if he did not give the law that they would not have fallen. So then God gave man the law, that he (God ) knew that he could not keep... thus putting man in sin by that law... or in other words making man to sin. Because the scripture says that where no law is there is no transgression.

So then were is the free will in this?... there is none.

God knew what man would do if he gave them the law, and what would happen if he did not give them the law. God is the one that put man into sin by the law. God is the one that also takes sin away, simply by not imputing sin through a law.

Jeremiah

[spiritman]

Just to tease... LOL

Here is an excerpt from this article here.

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of the "will" of God? Does God always "get his way"? Can his "will" be resisted or frustrated? Consider the following texts:

"I know that You can do all things, and that no purpose [or willing] of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have you done?'" (Dan. 4:35).

"But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases" (Ps. 115:3; cf. Eph. 1:11).

But we are also told that God "wills" that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) and that all "come to repentance" (2 Pt. 3:9). How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictory statements? One answer is found in a distinction between God's preceptive will and his decretive will.

Well worth a read .

Andy; interesting read: thanks for linking it

[leoxiii]

It is a dogma of the Catholic Religion that God has predestined the Elect to heaven from before the foundation of the world. The Church also teaches that in no wise has God predestined anyone to hell. It is also taught that it is the sin of presumption to assume you are one of the Elect. In the words of Saint Augustine: Because of Adam's sin, we are all of us damned. That God allows some to remain among the damned is no act of injustice on His part. That He predestines some to eternal life is wholly an act of mercy on His part. It is all brought about by His grace. To some He gives abundant grace to do His will and be saved. To others He withholds His grace. It is a great mystery of our Faith, the mystery of salvation.