I hope this is not a stupid question

[godrulz]

The reason it seems absurd and illogical is that it is. Truth is a reflection of reality. Is it possible your understanding of these verses is wrong? There are other possible explanations. Jesus was crucified in space-time history ? 29 A.D. He was not crucified in eternity past, nor in eternity future. Time is not a thing that was created, nor does it limit God. It is simply duration, sequence, and succession.

J. R. Lucas in the definitive "A treatise on time and space":

"Some theologians say that God is outside time, but it cannot be true of any personal God (will, intellect, emotions) that He is timeless, for a personal God is conscious, and time is a concomitant (accompany) of consciousness. Time is not only the concomitant of consciousness,, but the process of actualization and the dimension of change."

God is not a static, cosmic blob. He is dynamic, creative, and responsive. Creation and incarnation are changes that are only possible if time and change is an aspect of His being.

God is immutable in His uncreated essence, and omni. qualities, but He does change in His experiences and relations(=> time).

Theoretical physics is very speculative as evidenced by Steven Hawking's recent complete reversal on aspects of black holes. It should not be confused with Scripture.

"God and Time: Four Views" ed. Ganssle IVP

i) Divine timeless eternity= Paul Helm (? your view)

ii) Eternity as relative timelessness (Alan Padgett)

iii) Timelessness and omnitemporality (William Lane Craig)

iv) Unqualified Divine temporality (my view) Nicholas Wolterstorff

This is not a simple issue. It has theological and philosophical concepts that must be worked through. There are strengths and weaknesses of each view. All are godly scholars. Issues include: the nature of time, God and creation, God's knowledge of the future, God's interaction with His people, and the fullness of God's being.

The biblical, Hebraic view of time and eternity differs from the Greek philosophical view. What impact has philosophy on Augustine and others? What is explicit in Scripture? This is a practical and important area to wrestle with, but it is not a heaven or hell (salvific) issue.

[whatsitmean]

This is a practical and important area to wrestle with, but it is not a heaven or hell (salvific) issue.

That is true. I agree. No one need bother with this if they don't desire to.

If God is not outside time, how can He know the future? What does the Bible mean when it says:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How can there be such things as predestination and for knowledge?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[AFaceInTheCrowd]

Something that I have never really fully understood is the connection between paradise and the heart of the earth.  To the thief was the promise that " This day..Thou shalt be with me in paradise. 

Mt:12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 

Anyone want to take a shot at reconciling the two? 

Thanks,

Rick

GOD says HIS ways are not our ways.Alot of things I dont understand,maybe somethings werent meant for us to understand

[godrulz]

This is a practical and important area to wrestle with, but it is not a heaven or hell (salvific) issue.

That is true. I agree. No one need bother with this if they don't desire to.

If God is not outside time, how can He know the future? What does the Bible mean when it says:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How can there be such things as predestination and for knowledge?

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

If God is not outside time, how can He know the future? How can God 'see' that which is not there? What if some of the future is open and unknowable due to genuine free choices?

Is. 46:10 ff. "I make known the end from the beginning...what is still to come....my purpose will stand, and I will DO all that I please....what I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that will I do."

This passage does not teach exhaustive foreknowledge of all future contingencies (free choices; possibilities vs certainties/actualities). God knows some of the future. There is another motif in Scripture that shows that some of the future is open and only known as a possibility until choices are made. How does God know the future in this passage? It is by His ABILITY and WILL and PURPOSES (His omnicompetence) that He brings things to pass and thus knows them. It is not by so-called foreknowledge.

Is. 48:3 "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known; (how? by foreknowledge? No!) then suddenly I ACTED, and they came to pass." (ability, not knowledge=knowable).

He knows things He will unilaterally bring to pass (e.g. 1st and 2nd coming of Christ; future judgments). He does not know who will receive or reject Him trillions of years before they were born. He did not know the Superbowl winner billions of years ago. It is not a deficiency in omniscience to not know a nothing.

Eph. 1:4; I Peter 1:2 This is about the corporate election of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is not about individual election. Calvin's TULIP is not biblical. Those who believe (whosoever will may come) will become part of the foreknown corporate elect. He purposed to have a group of believers form the Church, but He did not coerce or predestine individuals arbitrarily. He knew there would be a church, but He did not exhaustively know who would make up the church. Logically, the only way He could know as a certainty who would be in the church would be to predestine or force individuals into it. This negates love relationship and genuine free will.

A Greek word study of foreknowledge would be helpful.

[whatsitmean]

I suppose it is possible that God makes an announcement and then produces the effect, in some cases, certainly.

It does make predictions like "not a bone of His shall be broken" and "they parted my garments among them" a little difficult, I should think, if He doesn't have to over ride a person's will now and then.

'foreknowledge' in both occurrences (Act_2:23, 1Pe_1:2) is prognōsis.

1) foreknowledge

2) forethought, pre-arrangement

I don't think that helps either one of us. It kind covers both sides.

The real difficulty I see in this view is that God would be constantly learning, just as we do, as events unfold which would mean that He would be constantly changing as new information comes to Him.

Also, God would not know ahead of time the outcome of tests like Job and Abraham offering Isaac. I think in that case, He could be defeated by someone acting in an unknowable way.

[nebula]

My question is...when someone dies and goes to Heaven do you think they know what is going on here on Earth? Also do you think they even think about us, the ones they left behind? I'm just looking for a little insight. Thanks everyone.....

First of all, to answer the topic of the thread:

Hebrews 11:39 - 12:1

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. 1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

This can be debatable, but I have heard that those who have died in the Lord may kind-of act like grand-stand fans for us: cheering us on, cat-calling our errors (LOL!), and all that.

I have also heard of some folks who have had dreams from loved ones who passes on, telling them about how haapy they are with Jesus and such (to comfort the one suffereing loss). It can be debateable whether that really was the person or the Lord granting a vision of the person in the dream.

But one thing I know - when I die, my race may be over here on Earth. But I'm sure I'l be leaving loved ones behind, and I'll never stop caring for them and I have absolutely no desire to stop praying for them nor stop encouring their walk with the Lord. And I can't picture any reason why the Lord would want us to stop, either!

My thoughts.

[nebula]

Secondly - the time issue

I'm not an expert on this, but I've read debates between folks who more-or-less are.

I heard that so far it has been discovered that time can be excellerated and slowed but not reversed. Thus, if we could ever "lick" the secret to time travel, we could jump forward in time, but we could never return. Nor could we travel back in time - which would be a good thing, because then we'd have to deal with the "changing the past" or "creating new dimensions/universes" issues (you'd have to be a sci-fi buff to know and appreciate what I'm talking about here!).

But I have two questions myself:

Is the realm of quantum physics actually the spiritual realm?

Or is the spiritual realm something completely different and totally unmeasurable by our physical world? If so, does it operate under a completely different set of laws an principles, its own version of physics if you will? And what might those be? :wow:

[eric]

T N Swann luly 17 2004

My question is...when someone dies and goes to Heaven do you think they know what is going on here on Earth? Also do you think they even think about us, the ones they left behind? I'm just looking for a little insight. Thanks

I dont know anything about time space quantum or anything scientific, but I know the word says absent from the body is present with the Lord and my take is that, when we go to be with the Lord we wont be thinking of people here on earth. Why, you ask. Because if you do you are going to make yourself miserable, because you wont be able to think of your saved loved ones who are grieving for you, without thinking about the unsaved ones, which are going to suffer in hell for all eternity...... and God says He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; nor sorrow, nor crying, nor pain--they will be no more for the former things have passed away My father died an atheist and I sure wont want to remember that. I dont expect everyone to agree with my own opinon and I dont care a flip if they dont, that's the only way I can see it

have a nice day,

eric.

[eric]

Revelation.21:4.