the future of the earth

[zaitzeff]

try again to accomplish what?

In arguing or debate or discussion, a person would present a

thesis and/or a conclusion.  Then, he presents evidence to support his thesis and reasons as to why the evidence is best explained, or only explained, by that thesis.

My thesis is this:

the conditions of the earth/society are going to gradually get better, in terms of its spiritual well-being, in terms of religious and other freedoms.  Yes, it is true that we might have some serious environmental problems, more serious, before things get better.

You can find my evidence in Gen 12:3, Deut 28, Daniel 2, Mt 13.

[traveller]

So, based on your thesis, I can just let the heavenly Father know that he can cease all of His hard work that has been in place since the foundations of the earth because you have determined, based on man's polls, that everything is gonna be okay and we don't really need Him to return a second time?

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the

beasts of the earth.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[OneAccord]

Here's my take on this article, for what it's worth.

Yes, things will seem to be getting better and better, more religious freedoms, et al.

BUT the anti-christ will then rise up and claim the glory, and many will turn to him and bow down to him.  It is part of the master plan of deception, to lure people to him through the facade of world peace and global unity.  And yet it will all be just a whitewash, not true mortar, and many will be decieved.  It may even come about in the guise of Christianity, much as the crucifixion was brought about by the Jews of that day.

[zaitzeff]

--- In smilingg@y..., "Robert Bayer" <robertbayer@e...> wrote:

> Thank you for answering my questions David.  In two mails, under the above

> subject headings, you have asserted many things about the future and an

> interpretation of Matthew 24:21-31.  Do you have any reasons for these

> assertions?

about the future,

the reasons are as follows--

If we take the Bible seriously, then we would both agree that the Bible foretells a time of peace and prosperity in a number of passages in the Old Testament, of which the chief is Is 65:17-25.  In addition to Is 65, we should note the promises of Is 2:1-5 and 11:1-9.  These passages describe a time of human mortality, but in which the world and society and nature are at peace.  Men do not steal from each other; nations do not make war on each other.  Even nature does not injure man.  Is 19:23-25 says that Egypt and Assyria will worship the Lord and God will bless them as His people.

The question for us, if we wish to speculate about the future or seek to understand it, is, "How will the earth go from its current conditions to the time described above?"

There are two basic answers to this proposed among Christians today:

1) world society will be changed in an instant by the sudden appearance of Jesus in the sky, who will kill vast armies and anyone else who opposes him around the globe.  The pastors and popular writers who propose this theory, in whatever year, frequently seem to place this event in what is, for them, the very near future, usually from 2 to 20 years in the future.  And, they have always been wrong, whenever they have made predictions about any of the following: the year or years of the return of Jesus, the identity of the "anti-Christ," the future composition of the EU, the influence and power of the USA, etc.  Anyone can read the books of Hal Lindsey or David Wilkerson over the last 30 years to see how wrong and how badly they predict the future, which is generally the opposite of what they have said it would be.

2) world society will be changed by the same slow and gradual processes which have been at work already for the last 2000 years.  These processes include prayer, evangelism, Bible reading and the maturing of the saints by pastors pastoring their churches.  These processes include the wicked and persecutors being cursed and dying in various ways.  These processes include God blessing the righteous and those who will bless the Christians, and making them the head

and leaders of society.  At times, these processes even include revolutions and wars in which the rule of the wicked is overthrown and replaced by the rule of those who refrain from persecuting Christians.  

Advocates of both views appeal to certain passages to support their positions.

Those who advocate the instantaneous-change thesis emphasize certain passages of scripture, while generally neglecting those passages which teach the gradual growth of the kingdom, Dan 2:34,35, Dan 7:12, Mt 13:31-33.  They also tend to neglect those passages which indicate that it is the saints themselves who shall fight and destroy the enemy, Micah 4:13, Micah 5:7-9.

Why would we choose one over the other of these views?  I think we should note three things:

1) What we thought God told us about the past re Adam and Eve, the flood, etc, was in fact a parable.  We know from science that the story of Adam and Eve and the flood did not happen at all or did not happen as described.  The story of Adam and Eve was told us for some other purpose than to convey information about history.  So it is with a number of Bible stories.  Jews told stories for their lesson, and not necessary because they were in fact history.  See II Samuel 12:1-7, the parables of Jesus and the book of Jonah.  The story of the 2nd coming of Jesus, likewise, is told for other purposes than to reveal the future.

We know that because a) Jesus has always been with us, and b) Jesus already has all power in heaven and over the earth, Mt 28:18-20, Mt 18:20.

2) Common sense tells us that if there are two kinds of plants in a garden and one kind is favored by resistance to disease and quick and easy multiplication,

that it will, more and more, displace the other kind of plant.  In the absence of persecution, Christians are favored over unbelievers, Deut 28.  Over time, Christians tend to displace unbelievers, partly by evangelism, partly by the early and premature deaths of unbelievers, partly by having kids and the unbelievers not having kids.  This happened in the Roman Empire from 30AD to 400AD.  It is happening in the world now.

Likewise, political systems that bless Christians are favored and blessed over systems that curse Christians.  Over time, such systems are blessed and favored and grow and take a benign dominion over the rest of the world, if only by example.

3) the consistently wrong predictions of the advocates of the instantaneous-change thesis is a sign that their thesis as a whole is wrong and that they have been misreading the Bible.

[Guest leejosepho]

ZaitZeff:

Greetings!

Here is your original post in the form of my contrasting "corrected paraphrase" of it:

Yes, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a fantasy created by people who are careless in Bible study.

[zaitzeff]

>Yes, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a fantasy created by people who are careless in >Bible study.  However, that does not prove the earth's conditions, or society's conditions, >will gradually get better and better over time.

The Bible says that the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that gradually transforms the dough, Mt 13:33.  Unless you wish to believe that the kingdom of God has an influence that makes society worse--then the gradual and transforming spread of the kingdom of God is naturally going to make things better!

>However, any seeming Roman-Empire or USSR "repentance" of their former persecution >is at best an illusion.

and, your evidence for this is ???

By the way, in case you have not noticed, the USSR no longer exists and so it can't persecute the Christians any more!

>And as to that persecution and its present-day like: Other countries may now also appear >to change - maybe some "peacefully", some as a result of civil war, or some as a result of >external war - but in the end, their alleged "peace" will prove to be but a similar illusion.

And you also predict that the USA is going to persecute Christians?  It is true that the USA has some minor flaws here and there.  It is true that the USA has been trying to muzzle MDs who recommend marijuana to patients or that in the USA, a real estate agent can't put a cross on his/her business card, I think.  Now, either the rest of the world is going to become more and more like the USA in terms of political and religious freedoms, or the USA is going to become like the world in terms of persecuting the Christians.  I don't know if you have read any history, but, in the last 1000 years, it is pretty plain to see that the trend is for more and more freedom in every area: religion, press, political, etc.

>However, you are correct: Right now, there are many countries listed as severely >persecuting 'Christians', which, over the years ahead, if the Messiah does not return >sooner, will gradually seem to reduce in number, maybe even down to "zero" ...

you agree with me!

>The alleged progress of "world society to paradise" is like the alleged progress of the >stock market: Seeming "corrections" are made when it fails, the long-term trend is >deceptively presented as being "up" ... yet in the end, each will fail completely, and >miserably.

the market is way above where it was in 1993 or 1893, for that matter.

>Some historians say that 'the Christians' ...

>As an aside: There is where, for the second time in your original post, you "gave yourself >away", so to speak, as a "mouthpiece of Satan", by referring to "the Christians" as a >group other than your own.  

Paul at times refers to the saints, but that does not prove that he is not one of them.

>Some historians say 'the Christians' revolutionized Rome, and whether true or false, >religion now plays on that report.  However, the true "revolution" actually happened at "it >is finished" when the Messiah was crucified!

It should be obvious to you that the yeast has not yet transformed all the dough. Mt 13:33

>In any case, the "revolution" is already complete; we simply do not need another.

>Folks: See how simple these things really are?!

Do you still pray that God's kingdom come?

>Nevertheless, many Christians do seem to foolishly believe, as some religions dogmatically teach, that it is their job to yet "revolutionize the world" anyway!

Mt 28:18-20.

>Hence:

>All around the world, there will be governments that are more or less allegedly >"democratic", which allegedly respect freedom of religion, of speech, of the press, of >assembly and the right to petition.  And, every government that is opposed to these >things will be taken down if its fails to willingly "repent" and adopt them on its own, >joining Satan's global-government New World Order.

The Red Chinese and the Saudis will fall because they persecute the Christians.  So says

Gen 12:3 and so says, Mt 21:44.

>And all the while, more and more people on earth will become "Christian."  The >percentage that is already "Christian" is going to go up, and up ...

you have a problem with that?

>and of the percentage that is called Christian, more and more will allegedly be "committed >'believers'" in what is going on.  And as Satan's One World Religion - ecumenism, >interfaithism, "let's all just get along" - continues to grow, fewer and fewer people on >Earth will be Orthodox, Roman Catholic or "mainstream liberal".

I am formerly LDS and everybody who knows me knows that I oppose LDS errors, JW errors, Catholic errors, and all similar errors.

>(Note: I bet the average Iraqi citizen is just thrilled at that possibility!)

Iraq now is a lot like Nazi Germany during WWII.  If and when we come, some will be happy and some will be sad.

>Among Christians, Christianity as it is understood by alleged "believers" will evolve in >such a way that truths formerly rejected by many believers are adopted and considered >normal.

>Has anybody ever read anything like that in Scripture?  Take heed!

500 years ago, in Europe, Christianity was understood to mean Catholicism, nothing else.

Your idea of Christianity is apparently just as faulty, because it includes many false ideas.

>For some, all of this will seem fun to watch, but this proposed man-made paradise will >never arrive ...

It will be the work of God; it has been the work of God.  Tell me, Lee, do you believe that God favored the American Revolution, or was God indifferent?  Did God favor the Union in the Civil War, or was God indifferent?  Did God favor the Protestant Reformation, or was God indifferent?  Did God just disappear from society at large; does God confine Himself to answering the prayers of individuals about their own individual lives, and do nothing of any greater scope?  Or, does God set up and take down kings and rulers at His pleasure?

Did God give the American founding fathers wisdom, or was He absent?

[RCruise]

zaitzeff:

I can see thus far that everyone who is reading your rediculous rubbish sees it for what it is; Garbage theology formed in your mind and stats Not from the Holy Ghost and the Word of God.

Get a clue dude!  Jesus said these days will get "increasingly evil" so that they will be like in the days of Noah.  Actually, I believe that is an understatement but, I wasn't around (as well as anyone alive today) during Noah's time to see what evil depths man had sunk to so that God would repent He ever made man or the earth and was moved to destroy it all save that which He chose to save including Noah and Family.

I am not able to discern what you believe or if you do believe at all in Jesus Christ.  But, know this; God foretold that scoffers and vile pervertedness of doctrines would rise up in the "last days".  Your stats only prove people rushing around looking for "their version" of Spirituality in God instead of humbling themselves and seeking Him personally as He requires of us to do.  Pentecostal (or any denominational orgs) growing by percentage rates faster than any other religion is more an indicator of the "Apostacy" Paul spoke of in these days rather than a growth in True Christianity.

God said the period of the antichrist will be worse than any time in history and worse than any time beyond it.  But, the worst part is yet to come for Tribulation even Great Tribulation is one thing and can be endured but, His Wrath WHICH SHALL COME is going to make men scream for the mountains to fall on them.  False prophets and teachers will be among them - lest you repent and really seek Him in all seriousness and Truth before then.  The Lake of fire is going to be an eternal torment but, the foretaste in His Wrath includes 5 months of torment by demonic, biting, stinging locust-like critters.  They will bite and sting man for 5 months and God will remove "death" from off the earth during that time.  That means even if you slit your throat, blow yourself up, etc..., no one will be able to escape via death for there will be no death to escape you to the grave.

Yea!  Sounds like a "Real Blast" and great time to be in.  NOT!

Read the Word and quit perusing the Garbage.

God Bless.

[Guest leejosepho]

ZaitZeff:

Greetings to you once again!

As an aside matter of simple curiosity: What, if any, is the meaning or significance of your name?

...

Having taken a look at Matthew 13:33, I must plead ignorance as to the Messiah's intent behind what it is there reported He said.

BlindSeeker?

In any case, no, I do not believe the kingdom of heaven makes society worse, but the fact it does not, does not automatically validate your overall conclusion as to the future of the earth.

As to any seeming Roman-Empire "repentance" of their former persecution:

I have heard some admission of errors made in the past, and I have heard of some efforts to make some amends, but I have yet to see any honest "change of heart".  If I could here say more about that without going into areas of religious debate I simply will not enter, I would do so.

As to any seeming USSR "repentance" of their former persecution:

Actually, I know virtually nothing of what had there been done in the first place.  But overall, and no matter what the USSR might today be called, Satan still hates Yah's chosen ones, and he will in one way or another continue to persecute them until he, for whatever reason, is no longer able to do so.

You have asked, "And you also predict the USA is going to persecute Christians?"

For now leaving aside the definition of "Christian", and without claiming from myself any "prediction", as such: Yes.

You have written, "... in the last 1000 years, it is pretty plain to see the trend is for more and more freedom in every area: religion, press, political, etc."

Some people believe that; I do not.

...

Yes, I have said you are correct: Right now, there are many countries listed as severely persecuting 'Christians', which, over the years ahead, if the Messiah does not return sooner, will gradually seem to reduce in number, maybe even down to "zero" ...

However, we are not even close to being in agreement as to how that will come about.

...

As to the stock market, world economics and the like:

I do not here propose to convince anyone of anything ... but I can tell what I have already said is true:

The alleged progress of "world society to paradise" is just that: alleged;

The alleged progress of the stock market is just that: alleged;

Seeming "corrections" are made when things fail;

The long-term trend is deceptively presented as being "up";

In the end, world society and economics and religion and government will each and all completely fail, and miserably, at attempting to make this world a better place.

...

You have asked, "Do you still pray that God's kingdom come?"

Which "God's kingdom"?  There are two proposed for the earth, and your question does not distinguish one from the other.  Nevertheless:

When I pray to the One who created all things, I pray His kingdom come.

...

I have written, "... more and more people on earth will become 'Christian'", and in context you have asked, "You have a problem with that?"

In the light of Satan's ecumenical, interfaith movement embracing compromised "believers" called "Christians", yes.

...

You have written, "Your idea of Christianity is apparently ... faulty ..."

If you would care to elaborate, I will entertain some discussion along that line.  But at the moment, I do not know what you believe to be my "idea of Christianity".

...

You have asked, "Tell me, Lee, do you believe that God favored the American Revolution ... the Union in the Civil War ... the Protestant Reformation ... or was God indifferent?"

Of what, or of "which" god do you speak?

...

While acknowledging we are each "on assignment" here, I nevertheless thank you for bearing with me.

May the One who created us open your eyes to the simplicity of His Salvation.

Lee ben Yoseph

[zaitzeff]

zaitzeff:

>I can see thus far that everyone who is reading your rediculous rubbish sees it for what it >is; Garbage theology formed in your mind and stats Not from the Holy Ghost and the >Word of God.

you might wish to visit or join the group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smilingg/

where at least one other Christian has enjoyed reading my thoughts.  whether he agrees with them all, I don't know.

>Get a clue dude!  Jesus said these days will get "increasingly evil" so that they will be like in the days of Noah.  

remind me of the verse, if you would.

>I am not able to discern what you believe or if you do believe at all in Jesus Christ.  But, >know this; God foretold that scoffers and vile pervertedness of doctrines would rise up in >the "last days".  Your stats only prove people rushing around looking for "their version" >of Spirituality in God instead of humbling themselves and seeking Him personally as He >requires of us to do.  Pentecostal (or any denominational orgs) growing by percentage >rates faster than any other religion is more an indicator of the "Apostacy" Paul spoke of >in these days rather than a growth in True Christianity.

It is hard to know who exactly is a true Christian and who is not.  Luther, Calvin and Knox concluded that in many cases it was impossible to know and moreover, unnecessary to know.  The evangelicals are growing at 5% a year and the Pentecostals at 8% a year.  Does that mean that all such who are counted are true Christians?  No, we don't really know that for sure.  However, the evangelicals and Pentecostals which are growing numerically at least mean that such as attend their churches are not attending the local Catholic church, Kingdom Hall or LDS meeting house or just watching football on Sunday morning.  They are attending a church were they are likely to hear and be taught and believe the Bible, rather than a church without the Bible, or the TV without the Bible.

Today, we have an American society with far more freedom, peace and justice than any society known from history.  We have that because there are so many Bible-believers in America and because Bible-believers have lived here in years past.  

>God said the period of the antichrist will be worse than any time in history and worse than >any time beyond it.  

in what verse, if I may ask?  The Bible, when it uses the term anti-christ, speaks of many, not one.  I John 2, if I recall correctly.  You are attributing to the Bible your own fantasies.

>But, the worst part is yet to come for Tribulation even Great Tribulation is one thing and >can be endured but, His Wrath WHICH SHALL COME is going to make men scream for >the mountains to fall on them.  

there are many cases in which men have wished to die or have in fact killed themselves.

Many of the persecutors of the Christians have killed themselves.  God's wrath did come upon the persecutors of the Church in the Roman Empire and God's wrath did come upon many persecutors of the church in the USSR and it will continue to come upon those persecutors in Red China.

> That means even if you slit your throat, blow yourself up, etc..., no one will be able to >escape via death for there will be no death to escape you to the grave.

Perhaps the Bible's language here was a matter of poetic hyperbole.  You believe that God will suddenly, during this time, do a series of miracles so that people who pull the trigger of a gun to kill themselves, will find that the gun won't fire or the bullet does not kill them?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hello zaitzeff,

For a different view of the Parable of Ten Virgins, click on the link below, but you may want to hold on to your hat 'cause it may get blown away  

http://www.worthynews.com/worthyb....11;t=69