out of context...

[One Way]

I'm not picking on anyone. If you read the thread you will see that I am simply responding to the prodding questions.

I know you are responding to the questions . . . it's what you are responding with that I am questioning.

Why should the Jews give up their heritage when they become Christians?

Nobody says they are called to "give up" they earthly heritage. But, in the Church, there is to be no attitude of superiority, which I sense here.

We, in the Church, should all be ONE.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We should all just be rejoicing that we are Christ's. Not that we are Abraham's.

Blessings... Over and OUT (before the pies start coming).

[Guest yod]

So, since I am his spiritual seed, why is it that I am not a spiritual Jew?

I just wanted to answer your response with my understanding and reasoning. I by not means want to get into a "is not, is too" argument. Believe what you want. I know what my Bible says.

You have been joined to the Israel of God. You are grafted in to their Olive Tree (which is Messiah) but that does NOT make you a jew, spiritual or otherwise.

In Exodus, we find that there were many strangers and aliens who sojourned with Israel. They were equal citizens in the kingdom, but they were not jews. God has not called everyone to be jewish...the goyim have a specific role to provoke them to jealousy for their God.

Anyways, I can see where this is going, so I'll let my explanation be my final word. Although, I'll gladly listen to your biblical explanation as to what I just said was wrong.

"Spiritual jew" is not a biblical concept.

It's totally a neo-charismatic fabrication. At the heart of it is a message which says, "We're the new jews and the old jews are out".

Replacement Theology is not a biblically accurate theology.

Does an Israeli become a "spiritual American" by driving a Chevrolet?

[Botz]

idied2...I take your point about the Scripture that you quoted.

Again John the Baptist was the last in the line of Old Covenant Prophets..he too was family(Jewish) and he too was entrusted with a unique ministy.

The assault and challenge that was meted out to Jewish leaders by both John the Baptist and the L-rd Jesus again does not give us Believers carte blanche to ride rough-shod over other people when we feel like it...I'm sure you can understand that.

Regarding the Jewish people...as Christians we have failed them dramatically for hundreds of years and to a large extent been responsible for much of the anti-Christian sentiment that many Jews understandably express. One does not have to water down the Gospel when speaking to Jewish people or compromise ones belief in Jesus...but one does need to have a great deal of love and compassion and forbearance that takes into consideration just why so many find the very name of Jesus such a stumbling block...and to automatically label them anti-Christ will achieve very little of lasting value.

The Apostle Paul was a great great man ...who had such a heart of love for his fellow man because he jolly well knew where he had come from and what a great salvation his Saviour had won for him. I really have so much respect for the example he allowed his life to be for us...and the tremendous cost he paid to walk in the footsteps of Christ and to die to his own abilities and understanding...for one reason only...THAT HE MIGHT WIN MORE PEOPLE TO CHRIST.

1Co 9:19  For though I was free from all, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more.

1Co 9:20  To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law;

1Co 9:21  to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Messiah), that I might win those who are without law.

1Co 9:22  To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.

1Co 9:23  Now I do this for the sake of the Good News, that I may be a joint partaker of it.

[Guest idied2]

You have been joined to the Israel of God. You are grafted in to their Olive Tree (which is Messiah) but that does NOT make you a jew, spiritual or otherwise.

What you said makes sense by some scriptures and by others it don't. please explain the following scripture.

But first lets agree that anyone that rejects CHRIST is not saved YET. only GOD could know who will be saved.

Ga 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:11

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all

1Co 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ro 10:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

Ac 15:9

and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug:

[nebula]

But, in the Church, there is to be no attitude of superiority, which I sense here.

What did Paul say?

Romans 3

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:

  "So that you may be proved right when you speak

      and prevail when you judge."[1]

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

  "There is no one righteous, not even one;

        11there is no one who understands,

      no one who seeks God. . . .

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 4

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Romans 9

1I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![1] Amen.

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[2] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[3]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. . . .

Romans 10

1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Romans 11

1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[1] ? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."[2] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[3]

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:

  "God gave them a spirit of stupor,

      eyes so that they could not see

      and ears so that they could not hear,

  to this very day."[4] 9And David says:

  "May their table become a snare and a trap,

      a stumbling block and a retribution for them.

    10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

      and their backs be bent forever."[5] 

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

  "The deliverer will come from Zion;

      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

    27And this is[6] my covenant with them

      when I take away their sins."[7]

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[8] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I'd like to emphasize Romans 11:15

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

[Guest shiloh]

I agree 3 in 1 - (out of context) - too many churches go by man-made tenets not Biblical truth. That's why so many denominations.

[Guest shiloh]

YOD - all believers are spiritual Jewsaccording to Abrahams's promise. Here are a few back-up verses.

ABRAHAM'S PROMISE

Gal.3:7 - Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal.3:14 - That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal.3:29 - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom.4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Acts15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

[Guest yod]

OK...maybe you guys can figure out why "gentiles" were called "gentiles" in the bible instead of "spiritual jews"?

Show me one place...just one....where any gentile was called a jew.

We are spiritual seed of Abraham. That means we have adopted his kind of righteousness in the spirit....that does not mean we have become his descendants in the flesh.

Since we are NOT given the covenant of circumcision, we are not jews.

Romans 15

7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.

8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision (jews) on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,

" THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,

AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."

[One Way]

We are spiritual seed of Abraham. That means we have adopted his kind of righteousness in the spirit....that does not mean we have become his descendants in the flesh.

Agreed. We are his decendants in the spirit. I think that has been the argument all along. I don't think anyone here has stated that they become "physical" or "natural" jews.

Yod, with all due respect my brother, I think you are not open to this idea. There are several passages that lead to the implication that we are spiritual Israel, that is, governed by God in the spirit. Yet, you have preconceived ideas that you can't part with.

This is not Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology teaches that God has forsaken Israel for the Church and that the Church has supplanted Israel. This is not true and anyone who reads Romans 11 will know this.

Blessings...

[Guest yod]

Yod, with all due respect my brother, I think you are not open to this idea.

that's putting it lightly.

I understand that it's basically a matter of semantics to you but I see it as confusing the issue of who we are in the Lord to the point of christians thinking that the only way a jew is one of the chosen people anymore is by joining the church. That's is not true. They are chosen for the sake of the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob) for a specific purpose. We are "chosen" also but for a different role.

Romans 9,10, & 11 explain that better than I can....but Paul always makes a distinction between jews and gentiles in his writings. Neither holds a superior position...but there IS a difference. Kind of like man and woman in a marriage.

So again...why are gentile believers called "gentiles" by the writers of the New Testament? Why aren't they called "spiritual jews" or any other form of jew?

ANSWER: It's not a biblical concept.

Prove otherwise and I'll be the first to congratulate you.