Church Gimmick Fills Pews

[spiritman]

it only was a matter of time until this happened.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Since I am unable to sleep I will weigh in on this subject.

First off my thoughts were this. If this pastor can teach his congregation how to be wise with there money this will set them free of a lot of things. As it says in Proverbs "The borrower is Slave to the Lender" he is doing that much.

As part of the lessons, Willis set up a shredder near the pulpit to encourage church members to shred their credit cards and commit to stop spending. He talks about budgeting, tackling past-due bills and saving. He encourages the prize winners to use the money to pay down their bills, rather than splurge on new items. One Sunday, he gave away 15 savings accounts with $25 already in them. And he had bank representatives at the service so church members could set up accounts.

"The Bible says even an ant stores up in the summer so it can live in the winter," Willis said. "Even an ant can teach us. Even an ant knows how to save. We, with intellect, don't know how to do it. When people see that in Scripture, it takes on a whole different level."

Then I thought. If this is just a gimmick to bring in people then maybe its not such a good thing. So I agree with what he teaches but I am not so sure about his methodology. But then again is it a bad thing?

I can not see into this mans heart. I do not know his thoughts or his true motives. So I see many people judging this pastor based on a news article. Who really knows what is going on or his true heart. For all we know they may have pressured him to say that it was just to fill the pews. From reading the article this was birthed out of a unselfish heart to help people. But again I could be wrong.

The cash prize is part of Willis' recent focus on helping his congregation pay bills and begin a debt-free life, he said.

"We've had soooo many of our people displaced from jobs, facing foreclosure," he said. "When people's faith was high, their debt was down. When their faith was down, their debt was high. I realized the two are connected."

The person who posted the article passed judgment on him by the one paragraph they put in bold. This made it seem more that he is just greedy for people to come in to his church by any means possible. If this is his true intent then the Lord will judge him. But if his intent started off by helping people get through this financial trouble by giving up a portion of the offering, which goes to him usually back to the congregation, is this wrong? Also the wording of that paragraph makes it some what suspect. It says he concedes. That usually means you were pressed for information and you finally gave in. I have seen articles like this before and they are carefully worded to spin it. You see this is written in such a way to again nominalize Christians yet again.

Another question is, if your church has limited resources to give away, and you want to choose some to give it to to help them get out of debt how do you choose? No one buys a lottery ticket, no one puts their name down. It's completely random. From my point of view given the right heart this may be a good thing. Oh don't get me wrong, can this go horribly wrong very very quickly? Yes, can greed become involved? Yes. But is it worshiping a broad path as some have said, not really. From what I have read this is not an outreach program to reach the lost, it is more of a program to help Christians become debt free. He never mentions the lost.

Also if this is wrong is it also wrong to hold a raffle to raise money for a church function say a youth group trip, or a new building wing? This falls into the same category that I have seen dozens if not hundreds of churches do all the time to fund raise. The difference here is he is trying to help his congregation to become debt free, and to be givers, this is something I believe Jesus agrees with don't you?

So my over all thoughts. I am not going to judge the motives. For I cannot. I will wait and see what fruit if any this has. From where I stand and from what I have read this man is doing what he can, in the best way he knows to help out his people. If it is from the Lord, then it will prosper. If it is not from him it will wither and die. I will leave it to the Lord to judge as that is his job, not mine.

Remember this, money is not evil. The love of money is. The good Samaritan was wealthy. If all Christians were simply debt free and able to put there money into the kingdom what could we do? How many missionaries could be funded? How many poor and hungry and sick could we reach? On this note for better or for worse we all could be better with managing God's money. Remember this we own nothing he owns everything we only manage what he has given us to use!

Edited November 11, 2009 by Isaiah 6:8

[OneLight]

God draws people through the preaching of His word and the working of the Holy Spirit. Man believes he can up the anti by cute antics like video games night for teems and pew lotteries. That is the difference between God and man. God knows what is needed ... man thinks he can help.

Amen, South and Onlight both make a good point!

Yes they are reasonable points

But I still contend that there is a lot more lee-way with G-d than we seem to realise...and as far as I can ascertain, the intentions of this pastor are not unrighteous, which is why I can't understand the need to condemn what he is attempting so quickly and with such little evidence...especially in the light of the way he is actively teaching 'kingdom principles' in the handling of money.

I am just thankful that G-d looks at a person's heart.

Brother, we are to do His work for equip the saints and for the edification of the body. How is this doing either???

Ephesians 4:11-16 (New King James Version)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head

[Botz]

Brother, we are to do His work for equip the saints and for the edification of the body. How is this doing either???

What I don't understand is how you can take the freedom in Christ that was given and apply it to gambling. Nobody is paying to enter, so one could say it is not gambling, but for those who come in to "win the prize" changes the desire of their heart from Christ to money. There are so many places in scripture, and is elementary in nature, that talks about serving two masters.

Hi bro...please see Isaiah 6:8's reply above, as it really echoes my own thoughts. I am also surprised that you can so easily jump to the conclusion that this man is serving two masters.

Would I operate the same way?....absolutely not, it's not my sort of thinking....but I have been around long enough to see great diversity within the body of Messiah, and some things which on the face of it might seem outlandish, actually work. I think time will tell if this man's ministry is of G-d...but you and other's obviously have heard enough already from the single newspaper clip...you might be right, but I prefer to give the guy a chance especially as apart from the gimmicky aspect I cannot honestly see something overtly wrong with what he is attempting.

I agree with some of the possible dangers that C S Lewis points out, and I daresay there are all sorts of problems that may arise from this experiment...hopefully if the Pastor realises he has created more problems than he has helping people, he will rethink his method.

One does go to 'Church' to worship and be fed...but at the end of the day there is room for all kinds of teaching...and as far as I can tell his method might be unorthodox, but his teaching about money is graphic and practical.

[OneLight]

Brother, we are to do His work for equip the saints and for the edification of the body. How is this doing either???

What I don't understand is how you can take the freedom in Christ that was given and apply it to gambling. Nobody is paying to enter, so one could say it is not gambling, but for those who come in to "win the prize" changes the desire of their heart from Christ to money. There are so many places in scripture, and is elementary in nature, that talks about serving two masters.

Hi bro...please see Isaiah 6:8's reply above, as it really echoes my own thoughts. I am also surprised that you can so easily jump to the conclusion that this man is serving two masters.

Would I operate the same way?....absolutely not, it's not my sort of thinking....but I have been around long enough to see great diversity within the body of Messiah, and some things which on the face of it might seem outlandish, actually work. I think time will tell if this man's ministry is of G-d...but you and other's obviously have heard enough already from the single newspaper clip...you might be right, but I prefer to give the guy a chance especially as apart from the gimmicky aspect I cannot honestly see something overtly wrong with what he is attempting.

I agree with some of the possible dangers that C S Lewis points out, and I daresay there are all sorts of problems that may arise from this experiment...hopefully if the Pastor realises he has created more problems than he has helping people, he will rethink his method.

One does go to 'Church' to worship and be fed...but at the end of the day there is room for all kinds of teaching...and as far as I can tell his method might be unorthodox, but his teaching about money is graphic and practical.

I also agree with Isaiah 6:8, but what does this have to do with what this minister is doing? I am sure when we say "Here am I! Send me." we are not talking about what this preacher is doing. That is the twisting of scripture I referred to earlier, how when we see something we want to do, that we think is cool and new, we can always find scripture to back it up. Be careful brother. Even those who have been around a long time can get tripped up.

Why did you not reply to the scripture I gave to show you why I feel this way? To answer your concern, I am against all trickery that has become so accepted in today's churches. What does this say to me? Come and win money, rip up your credit cards and start a savings account. Bank business should be done in the banks. Preach against debt, yes. Preach for savings, yes. Place a shredder in church, bring in bank representatives, have a drawing to win money ... no.

[kross]

Clearly there are two side to this discussion and it seems they are based in the two views of what church is for.

one side feels church is for believers. They come to church to worship and praise and feel this "incentive" will bring people to worship who are only there for the money. In their mind this is wrong, and rightly so.

The other side feels church is a place for evangelism and teaching. They come to church to worship but also feel the church is the foundational place for saving souls. To them, getting people through the doors so they can recieve a message and possibly be saved is the goal of the church. For them, anything that will lead to this end is worth the effort. I believe this is a valid position, as I am one of those who feels that the church building is a good place to share the gospel with people and I preach salvation messages and give alter calls.

Truth is, if all Christians would invite people to their church or share the gospel and lead people to the LORD, than gimmicks would not be necessary (plus our nation would be in much better shape). But many people in church feel it is the job of the pastor to get people into the church. So, he either figures out a way to go to them, which takes more time than the church will allow, or he finds a way to get them to come to him. Churches hold all kinds of events to bring people to a place to hear a message.

I run a ministry that is a fundraising ministry. we build youth centers and spread the message and logo of Bless God America (.org) in different cities and states. One of the things we do is give away free cars to our supporters/partners. We do this to create ministries that save souls and create save, moral alternatives for kids in troubled areas. And evryone will judge that as they see fit.

[OneLight]

Truth is, if all Christians would invite people to their church or share the gospel and lead people to the LORD, than gimmicks would not be necessary (plus our nation would be in much better shape). But many people in church feel it is the job of the pastor to get people into the church.

Exactly! If we, the body, was doing His business of introducing people to Him, then gimmicks would never be necessary. To place this responsibility solely on the Pastors is not only unscriptural, but it places a weight on their shoulders that they were never appointed to carry. We are to function as a body, all doing their part. It is sad to see people sit back and do nothing to tell others of salvation through Christ, to help them out of their misery of sin, using "I am not called to do this" as an excuse. Not, we are not all Apostles, Prophets, Teachers etc., but we all are called to spread the good news with the gifts we are given.

[Fez]

I wonder what people would think about holding a church in a bank?

[nikki1]

Truth is, if all Christians would invite people to their church or share the gospel and lead people to the LORD, than gimmicks would not be necessary (plus our nation would be in much better shape). But many people in church feel it is the job of the pastor to get people into the church.

Exactly! If we, the body, was doing His business of introducing people to Him, then gimmicks would never be necessary. To place this responsibility solely on the Pastors is not only unscriptural, but it places a weight on their shoulders that they were never appointed to carry. We are to function as a body, all doing their part. It is sad to see people sit back and do nothing to tell others of salvation through Christ, to help them out of their misery of sin, using "I am not called to do this" as an excuse. Not, we are not all Apostles, Prophets, Teachers etc., but we all are called to spread the good news with the gifts we are given.

Ditto here.

The problem I see where I live is that I can't find a single church that goes out into the community to seek the lost and bring them into the congregation. And we have loads of churches here. They expect people to come, but don't go out and get them. The last church I attended, the first thing I asked the pastor was if they had an outreach ministry for the local community, and he said no. I offered to start one, but the pastor was disinterested. So I didn't stay at that church. The mormons come around every week though seeking converts to bring them in. Pastors need to train their congregation to go out into the local community, kncok on doors, share the Gospel and invite them to come, and get rid of the worldly gimmicks, which are unscriptural. They need to have a bus or a van to go and get the people who don't have a vehicle. This works because it is what Jesus said to do. When I lived in the city, this is what we did, and God blessed our congregation immensely. New converts were coming all the time because we went out two by two, knocking on doors, seeking unchurched people, and brought them in.

Blessings,

Nikki

[Gerioke]

I would like to know where the bible says we are supposed to quote the bible to bring people to the Lord. I was always under the impression that we were to be examples of Christ, not an army of Jack Van Impes.

This guy is giving money away. Hardly an example of Mammon worship. In my opinion, he is being an example of many of the Lords teachings.

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure

44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

The Rich Young Man

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?"17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."18 He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."20 The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?"21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Many people who frequent these boards sound like the rich young man, the way they go on about their hard earned money and social programs and mexicans.

I say good for this preacher.