RevelatioN

[spiritman]

"Revelation is centered upon the coming of Christ Jesus, Messiah and King of Israel, to His Kingdom. To state that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the coming of a very Jewish King, Man, Kingdom, and Messiah is a misnomer."

I never said Revelation had nothing to do with the coming of a Jewish King. The entire New Testament is about that. Just when did the Kingdom begin though? I contend it began in Matthew 28 at the Ascension.

Dan 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (The Ascension)

Dan 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and {men of every} language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (The Kingdom is given to Christ AT THE ASCENSION, fulfilling Daniel's prophetic vision.)

Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Daniel's prophecy fulfilled. Jesus is given all authority in heaven and earth. Furthermore, He also gives them the Holy Spirit 10 days later, further cementing the fact that the Kingdom has begun.

So what's the problem here?

Hey Bold, Daniel 7:14 cross-reference to Revelation 11:15 which reads; "15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ ; and He will reign forever and ever." This is when Christ rules down here on earth. Daniel 7:13 and Daniel 7:14 are speaking of the time when Christ will be put in charge of the earth.

[Bold Believer]

If the Book of Revelation has happened in 70 A.D, then you should be able to answer my following questions:

when did the following occur

1. the Anti-Christ broker in a 7 year peace treaty with Israel, and her enemies, and then break it; and sit on the throne in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God?

2. when did the anti-Christ Make everyone on planet earth receive a mark in their right hand or forehead; So that those who would not receive the mark couldn't buy or sell

3. The anti-christ and his entire army have a fight with Jesus Christ, and lose? ( this is how the anti-christ dies by the way) has anyone in history died this way?

4. And when did Jesus Christ sit on the throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years?

5. when did the anti-christ Form a one world alliance where, He is ruler over the entire planet?

6. when did All of Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah?

These are just a few question I have, here is scripture to where these are located.

1. Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:36; Daniel 12:11

2. Revelation 13: 16- 18; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 19:20

3. Revelation 19:20-21

4. Revelation 20:6; Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14; Mic 4:7;

5. Daniel 2:42-43; Daniel 7:7; Daniel 7:24; Revelation 17:12

6. Jeremiah 31:31-34; Jeremiah 32:40-42; Romans 11:26; Luke 21:24;

Bold believer; May God be with you as you study these above concerns of mine.

Daniel never mentions anything about antichrist. I've been through that whole antichrist thing in an earlier post in this thread. Antichrist was a term used by John to describe heretics in his day who denied the Father and the Son. See I and II John.

Furthermore, Daniel never mentions anything about a peace treaty.

Dan 9:25 "So you are to know and discern {that} from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince {there will be} seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end {will come} with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

OK, so you have 69 weeks, with Messiah being cut off after the 69 weeks (during the 70th week). Daniel continues matter of factly stating that the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary. Who is the prince who is to come? Messiah, he is the only prince mentioned. Jesus told the Pharisees what was going to happen, first in parables (Mt 21:42-22:7 with special emphasis on v 22:7...the king is the one who sends forth his armies and destroys the murderers and burns up their city, exactly what occurred in 70 AD), and then plainly in Matthew 23:34-38 he tells them that their house will be left to them desolate. The house is the TEMPLE. What did Daniel say? The city and the sanctuary would be destroyed by the people of the prince who would come (by the authority of the king, his Father). Continuing on to verse 27, and remembering that the only prince mentioned here is Messiah the Prince (v 25), who makes the covenant? MESSIAH THE PRINCE.

What covenant did Messiah make?

Luk 22:20 -And in the same way {He took} the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Daniel calls it a firm covenant. He NEVER calls it a peace treaty, although technically, it is: A peace treaty between God and men, as the hymn says 'God and sinners reconciled.'

Now, to the antichrist question. Does ANYONE see the word Antichrist here? No, of course not, because it doesn't belong here.

Daniel 11:36 refers to Antiochus Epiphanes who brought a statue of Zeus/Jupiter into the sanctuary and demanded the Jews to worship it and stop being faithful. If I am not mistaken, he also sacrificed a pig in the sanctuary.

Daniel 12:11 refers to an incident under Antiochus. He desecrated the temple and ruled over the Jews about 3.5 years (God seems to like 3.5 year periods.) or 3 years, 7 months.

I will answer the Revelation 13 question next

[JIME]

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end {will come} with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The prince spoken of here is written with a little "p" which is showing that it is not talking about Jesus, it is talking about a man. If it were talking about Jesus it would look like this "Prince". This scripture is talking about a future person that will come from the same people who in 70 a.d. destroyed the city and the temple. That people was Rome led by Titus. This "prince" will be a descendant from them. The prince who is to come is the anti-christ.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 9:27 does speak of a treaty. The word covenant means treaty. The Hebrew word used here is berith. See definition:

Hebrew NASB Number: 1285

Hebrew Word: ‏בְּרִית‎

Transliterated Word: berith (136b)

Root: from an unused word;

Definition: a covenant:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used

allied (1),

allies* (1),

covenant (275),

covenants (1),

El-berith* (1),

league (2),

treaty (4).

[Bold Believer]

2. Revelation 13: 16- 18; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 19:20

In order to understand Rev 13, you have to start at the beginning of the chapter, not at verse 16. The imagery is that of Daniel, even the wording is similar.

John sees a beast, then describes the beast. The beast is a composite of all of Daniel's beasts, it has characteristics of each. It gets three things from the dragon (who has already been revealed to be the devil earlier): strength (power), a throne and great authority. If this beast looks like Daniel's Fourth Beast, that is because it IS. Historically, Daniel's Fourth Beast is Rome. John is writing during the reign of...Rome.

The beast has seven heads and one of them receives a mortal wound, but the Beast keeps going. (Nero committed suicide by stabbing himself in the throat and his secretary finished him off. For a brief period, there was tumult in the Empire, but it got straightened out and Rome continued.) Naturally the world was awed and they worshipped the devil (whether they realized it or not) by giving the awe which belongs only to God to pagan Rome. They worshiped Rome as well, saying "Who is like Rome? Who can fight and defeat Rome?"

Then, Rome gets a mouth. If this sounds a lot like Daniel 7:8, that's because the LORD is talking about the same things here. The mouth and the little horn with the eyes and the big mouth of Daniel 7 are the same individual head...NERO. Nero is the epitome of Imperial Roman power. Arrogant. Boastful. Rotten to the core. Self-indulgent. Nero persecuted the saints of God for 42 months and overcame them. He used Believers for torches to light his sick garden parties. As bad as all of the emperors were before him, Nero was worse. He cursed the very God of heaven, he spoke against the Church (the tabernacle of God) and those Christian who died under his hand (thus being in heaven). Nero had power over all of the nations because he headed Rome.

If your heart was set upon the things of the earth, you worshiped Rome in your heart, because your name isn't in the Book of Life (you're not saved). To use the modern vernacular: Nero is 'your boy', he's the man. He runs Rome and nobody can stop him because nobody can stop Rome, the two are inexorably linked. Rome was your god, you got everything worth having from Rome: your protection, your livelyhood, everything.

Then John sees another beast. Huh? A fifth beast? Not really. This beast doesn't originate from the same place as Daniel's beasts; they came from the sea. This beast comes from the earth...or most correctly The Land. As in the Land of Israel. This Land Beast has two characteristics which should stand out:

1. Horns like a Lamb

2. Speech of a dragon

He looks like a lamb, seemingly harmless. He talks like his daddy the Devil. Now...what did Jesus tell the Pharisees in John 8:44.

Jhn 8:44-"You are of {your} father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own {nature,} for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Hmm. 'Who's your daddy'? Ouch.

So then this Land Beast springs from apostate Israel, that portion of the nation which rejected Jesus as Messiah. The Land Beast has the authority of John's Beast. He can exercise the authority (not the power, the authority) of Rome. The Jewish leadership exercised Roman power and aided Rome in the persecution of Believers. Rome even gave the Jews permission to deal with criminals under their own law in all but death penalty cases. (Jn 18:31)

Act 9:1,2 Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

As we progress, we find the Land Beast makes the Land and the people who live in it worship the First Beast (Rome). By failing to lead them to Messiah, the leadership of Israel makes them worship Satan, through Rome, the only other available thing to worship. Remember those fatal words in John 19:15:

Jhn 19:15 So they cried out, "Away with {Him,} away with {Him,} crucify Him!" Pilate *said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."

and these words in Matthew 27

Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death.

Mat 27:25 And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!

It was a case of worship Jesus or Satan and the Land Beast persuaded the people to pick....SATAN, through acquiescence to Rome.

So then, the Land Beast is the Jewish leadership. This is further confirmed by the fact that the high priests had the authority to call fire down from heaven in the sight of men (sacrifices). Under Jewish law, when you wanted to make sacrifice, you went to the priests and elders and religious authorities.

Now, the Jewish leadership caused the unfaithful Jews to surrender their Messiah to the Beast. They carried the authority of Rome to persecute the Believers. They caused the people to worship Rome through Caesar-worship and take the Mark of the Beast.

Yikes! That dreadful Mark. Well just exactly what IS the Mark of the Beast, Rome? W O R S H I P. The mark of the beast is the exact opposite of Deuteronomy 6:8.

Deu 6:8 "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Rev 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

See? EXACT OPPOSITES. Israel's rejection of Christ caused acceptance of Satan, the spiritual power behind Imperial Rome.

The Jewish leadership caused Israel to make an icon out of Rome. Not a literal ikon, but an icon nevertheless, they caused them to make Rome 'bigger than life' if you will. Instead of magnifying God, and making Him bigger, they gave what rightfully belonged to God to pagan Rome, and thusly to Satan, who was behind Rome.

[spiritman]

If the Book of Revelation has happened in 70 A.D, then you should be able to answer my following questions:

when did the following occur

1. the Anti-Christ broker in a 7 year peace treaty with Israel, and her enemies, and then break it; and sit on the throne in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God?

2. when did the anti-Christ Make everyone on planet earth receive a mark in their right hand or forehead; So that those who would not receive the mark couldn't buy or sell

3. The anti-christ and his entire army have a fight with Jesus Christ, and lose? ( this is how the anti-christ dies by the way) has anyone in history died this way?

4. And when did Jesus Christ sit on the throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years?

5. when did the anti-christ Form a one world alliance where, He is ruler over the entire planet?

6. when did All of Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah?

These are just a few question I have, here is scripture to where these are located.

1. Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:36; Daniel 12:11

2. Revelation 13: 16- 18; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 19:20

3. Revelation 19:20-21

4. Revelation 20:6; Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14; Mic 4:7;

5. Daniel 2:42-43; Daniel 7:7; Daniel 7:24; Revelation 17:12

6. Jeremiah 31:31-34; Jeremiah 32:40-42; Romans 11:26; Luke 21:24;

Bold believer; May God be with you as you study these above concerns of mine.

Daniel never mentions anything about antichrist. I've been through that whole antichrist thing in an earlier post in this thread. Antichrist was a term used by John to describe heretics in his day who denied the Father and the Son. See I and II John.

Furthermore, Daniel never mentions anything about a peace treaty.

Dan 9:25 "So you are to know and discern {that} from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince {there will be} seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end {will come} with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

OK, so you have 69 weeks, with Messiah being cut off after the 69 weeks (during the 70th week). Daniel continues matter of factly stating that the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary. Who is the prince who is to come? Messiah, he is the only prince mentioned. Jesus told the Pharisees what was going to happen, first in parables (Mt 21:42-22:7 with special emphasis on v 22:7...the king is the one who sends forth his armies and destroys the murderers and burns up their city, exactly what occurred in 70 AD), and then plainly in Matthew 23:34-38 he tells them that their house will be left to them desolate. The house is the TEMPLE. What did Daniel say? The city and the sanctuary would be destroyed by the people of the prince who would come (by the authority of the king, his Father). Continuing on to verse 27, and remembering that the only prince mentioned here is Messiah the Prince (v 25), who makes the covenant? MESSIAH THE PRINCE.

What covenant did Messiah make?

Luk 22:20 -And in the same way {He took} the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Daniel calls it a firm covenant. He NEVER calls it a peace treaty, although technically, it is: A peace treaty between God and men, as the hymn says 'God and sinners reconciled.'

Now, to the antichrist question. Does ANYONE see the word Antichrist here? No, of course not, because it doesn't belong here.

Daniel 11:36 refers to Antiochus Epiphanes who brought a statue of Zeus/Jupiter into the sanctuary and demanded the Jews to worship it and stop being faithful. If I am not mistaken, he also sacrificed a pig in the sanctuary.

Daniel 12:11 refers to an incident under Antiochus. He desecrated the temple and ruled over the Jews about 3.5 years (God seems to like 3.5 year periods.) or 3 years, 7 months.

I will answer the Revelation 13 question next

Bold said; " Daniel never mentions anything about antichrist. I've been through that whole antichrist thing in an earlier post in this thread. Antichrist was a term used by John to describe heretics in his day who denied the Father and the Son. See I and II John.

My reply; In Daniel 9:25 it reads; " Dan 9:25 "So you are to know and discern {that} from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince {there will be} seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

One of the things you will notice in scripture; when ever Jesus or the Holy Spirit or the word He or Him, or His , or Prince is used to speak about any person of the Trinity it is always captialized. As you see above in Daniel 9:25 after the word Messiah the word Prince has a captial P in it , this means it's speaking about one of the members of the Trinity in this case Jesus the Messiah.

Now let's look at Daniel 9:26; it reads; " "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end {will come} with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

In the first half of Daniel 9:26, he is speaking about the crucifixion of the Messiah, but then switches gears and talks about a prince (small p, not captial P) meaning not a member of the trinity (this second half is not talking about Jesus). what it is saying here is From the lineage of the People ( Romans) who destroyed the temple in 70 A.D

will arise a prince (small p)

And then Daniel 9:27 talks about the fact that this (small p) prince will; " "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The Hebrew word for week in Daniel 9:27 is : Hebrew Word: ‏שָׁבֻעַ‎

Transliteration: sh

[Bold Believer]

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end {will come} with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The prince spoken of here is written with a little "p" which is showing that it is not talking about Jesus, it is talking about a man. If it were talking about Jesus it would look like this "Prince". This scripture is talking about a future person that will come from the same people who in 70 a.d. destroyed the city and the temple. That people was Rome led by Titus. This "prince" will be a descendant from them. The prince who is to come is the anti-christ.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 9:27 does speak of a treaty. The word covenant means treaty. The Hebrew word used here is berith. See definition:

Hebrew NASB Number: 1285

Hebrew Word: ‏בְּרִית‎

Transliterated Word: berith (136b)

Root: from an unused word;

Definition: a covenant:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used

allied (1),

allies* (1),

covenant (275),

covenants (1),

El-berith* (1),

league (2),

treaty (4).

—NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

The Hebrew word for week is shabua. See definition:

Hebrew NASB Number: <A name=h7620>7620

Hebrew Word: ‏שָׁבוּעַ‎

Transliterated Word: shabua (988d)

Root: from 7651;

Definition: a period of seven (days, years), heptad, week:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used

seven (1),

week (4),

Weeks (5),

weeks (14).

—NASB Greek-Hebrew Dictionary

So one week is 7 years. So the treaty was to be for 7 years.

Dan 9:25 "So you are to know and discern {that} from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince {there will be} seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

So there was 69 weeks or 483 years. There is still another 7 years to be accounted for. That is the 7 years of the "firm covanent." The time of the tribulation before Jesus comes back to rule and reign on earth.

First of all, the capitals are of little consequence. WEere translating from Hebrew. Messiah the prince confirms the covenant at the Passover with his disciples.This occurs IN the 70th week. Messiah is cut off for us in the middle of the week. It is then that He causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease, not literally, but in its effectiveness. We don't NEED the blood of bulls and goats anymore, we have a better covenant through Messiah.

Second of all, Imperial Rome became a tool of God to punish apostate Israel and destroy the Temple because the Tabernacle of God is with men now. Yes, Titus and his armies were the abomination of desolation, but permission to be there ultimately came from God, they were there to fulfill the days of vengeance.

The duration of the covenant is never mentioned, merely that a covenant is made. The covenant is permenant, not seven years. I've been a Christian 35 years, the covenant is still good. The covenant has been active over 2000 years, it's still good.

The 70th week is accounted for quite well, thank you. Christ died and was resurrected at the midpoint, then the Ascension, Pentecost and the beginning of the Kingdom all occurred during the remainder of the 70th week to round it out. There was no gap in the week. The only gap in the whole episode is the one between Messiah's returning to heaven and the destruction of Jerusalem. (This is past the 70th week, but within the generation to whom Jesus preached, taught and healed.)

[JIME]

In order to understand Rev 13, you have to start at the beginning of the chapter, not at verse 16. The imagery is that of Daniel, even the wording is similar.

Just as I stated earlier, more pieces of the big puzzle of Revelation. That is was Daniel and Ezekiel are to this book.

[spiritman]

Well bold,

All I have to say is if you're going to ignore proper hermuenitics and English language rules then I can't help you. But it's been fun and educational. See ya later.

[spiritman]

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end {will come} with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The prince spoken of here is written with a little "p" which is showing that it is not talking about Jesus, it is talking about a man. If it were talking about Jesus it would look like this "Prince". This scripture is talking about a future person that will come from the same people who in 70 a.d. destroyed the city and the temple. That people was Rome led by Titus. This "prince" will be a descendant from them. The prince who is to come is the anti-christ.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations {will come} one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 9:27 does speak of a treaty. The word covenant means treaty. The Hebrew word used here is berith. See definition:

Hebrew NASB Number: 1285

Hebrew Word: ‏בְּרִית‎

Transliterated Word: berith (136b)

Root: from an unused word;

Definition: a covenant:--

List of English Words and Number of Times Used

allied (1),

allies* (1),

covenant (275),

covenants (1),

El-berith* (1),

league (2),

treaty (4).

[Shiloh62]

No, that isn't a typo in the title. I've noticed that a lot of Believers write or say "Revelations" when they mean the Book of Revelation. Just what is the book revealing? Is it a book about primarily the end of time, or the end of an age? Or about things which will occur soon to its original readers.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Jesus is the Revealer. God gave him the revelation to show to his bondservants the things which must soon take place. Soon. Not 2000+ plus years later, but soon. As in soon to the people to whom it was written. So then, if it was soon to them, why do modern believers insist on trying to make it something meant for us in our day? All Scripture has things to teach and show us, don't get me wrong, but the Revelation was not specifically meant for us, but to the Believers of the day in which it was written.

All of the figures, metaphors and yes, the things that literally happened as well, all have their roots in the Old Testament and early New Testament, not in the newspaper and TV. It has little to say to us, with the exception of the final chapters, and even there, the information given is very sketchy and non-specific. Yet, modern teachers insist on trying to make the revelation fit us here in the future, rather than the Believers of the day in which it was written. In their misguided attempts to do this, the modern teachers twist history and take this things out of context both Scripturally and historically to our detriment.

When reading Revelation, keep the Old Testament handy and look at the words and figures used in Revelation. The book will make a lot more sense when (and if) you do. Also, think about having Josephus' Antiquities Chapter 5: War of the Jews around as well for a historical perspective of 70 AD from someone who was there.

I used to call it that, until I realized that wasn't how it was spelled, and try to make a concienscious effort to spell it correctly.