RevelatioN

[spiritman]

Messiah the KING (remember, he's been to the Father, he's received the Kingdom) is reigning. I give you Mt 28:19 "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me." What part of that do you not understand? Was Jesus lying when He said it? No. Obviously not. Is it not written that the heavens are his throne and the earth his footstool?

Christ is already reigning.

Yes Christ is seated on the right hand of the father, this I understand. However, our coversation somehow managed to shift from the fact that you believe the anti-christ has already been here. He has not!!. And you seem to believe that the Mark of the beast has already occured, and again I stress it has not!!!.

If Jesus Reigns in all mans hearts then why don't all the jews follow him? Why is there still murder, theft. Why do the Lion chase and kill the lambs. why is the earth polluted and nuclear war still a threat. When the messiah comes to earth to set up His kingdom these things will be addressed.

My main point in which you keep going off the subject; is that even though the spirit of anti-chirst exists, through many individuals that one man anti-chirst in Revelation 13

and Daniel 9 has not come yet. And you have yet to prove through historical evidence that he has. Show me one thread of historical evidence that nero, or Antiochus Epiphanes, is the anti-chirst using my litmus test. The truth is you can't. which about this time you need to ask yourself If I can't prove what I'm saying through historical evidence perhaps my doctrine is wrong.

Brother, I don't mean to be mean toward you, because If you believe in Jesus Christ you are a brother of mine, and if this is the case, then this is not a salvation issue. But you would be cheating yourself our of a reward.

I don't want to see that happen.

Love and peace

Bob

[spiritman]

Bold Believer

Messiah the KING (remember, he's been to the Father, he's received the Kingdom) is reigning. I give you Mt 28:19 "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me." What part of that do you not understand? Was Jesus lying when He said it? No. Obviously not. Is it not written that the heavens are his throne and the earth his footstool?

Christ is already reigning.

God promised Israel a Kingdom and He keeps His promises. This is the reason Jesus is coming back to again offer His Kingdom, and this time they will receive it. God said he would bring a Kingdom to Israel and through Israel His Kingdom would extend into all the world. Why do you think God has preserved the Jewish people on earth and gathered them back to the Land of Israel after nearly being annihilated over and over, and the nation of Israel was reborn in one day?

Indeed, Jesus did come to bring His Kingdom to earth and to reign over it and to establish what He promised to Israel; since Israel refused Him and His Kingdom the first time, this means the Kingdom cannot come until the nation of Israel receives her king. Until then, the Kingdom of Israel has been postponed until a future time that has not occurred yet. Israel will receive her King and Kingdom when Christ returns to reign on David's Throne, and the Jews say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." Luke 13:35

Blessings,

Nikki

There you go

listen to sister Nikki

[Fez]

Just to change the subject a bit. If anybody, anybody, includes that whole quote again, and answers at the bottom with one sentence, I am going to throw my grace out of the window and have a tantrum. Then I am going to come looking for you........

[spiritman]

Just to change the subject a bit. If anybody, anybody, includes that whole quote again, and answers at the bottom with one sentence, I am going to throw my grace out of the window and have a tantrum. Then I am going to come looking for you........

Fez; Did you forget to take your pills this morning ?

[spiritman]

Anyway, brother bold I wanted to make myself clear to you on what I'm talking about.

1. If the antichrist hasn't come yet

2. And the mark of the beast hasn't been given yet

3. And Christ has not come back to set up His earthly kingdom yet

4. The church hasn't been raptured yet

5. The Great Apostasy of the church hasn't taken place yet.

6. The one world government hasn't taken place yet

Then all the above means that the the Book of Revelation hasn't happened yet because; in order for it to have happend in 70. A.D all the above would have had to happen.

And this is the only point of contention between you and I so far. Ok I think I've covered most of my points.

[Bold Believer]

Anyway, brother bold I wanted to make myself clear to you on what I'm talking about.

1. If the antichrist hasn't come yet

2. And the mark of the beast hasn't been given yet

3. And Christ has not come back to set up His earthly kingdom yet

4. The church hasn't been raptured yet

5. The Great Apostasy of the church hasn't taken place yet.

6. The one world government hasn't taken place yet

Then all the above means that the the Book of Revelation hasn't happened yet because; in order for it to have happend in 70. A.D all the above would have had to happen.

And this is the only point of contention between you and I so far. Ok I think I've covered most of my points.

I never EVER said that Nero OR Antiochus were 'the antichrist.' I have gone out of my way to tell you what John has said concerning antichrist. Antichrist has NOTHING TO DO WITH REVELATION. Antichrist is not mentioned in Revelation. Antichrist is only EVER mentioned in John's letters. The term is used 5 times in the WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT. Modern teachers have built an entire doctrine around a myth and a misunderstanding. I invite you to read I John and II John for definition of who is antichrist is. Hint: It is not a future dictator.

The mark of the beast was acquiescence to the Roman emperors as god(s). Apparently, you haven't read a thing I've written friend and my fingers are tired. The mark is the exact opposite of Deut 6:8 where Israel is told to put the Law of God on their foreheads and or right hands. It's a contrasting statement to Deut 6. BECAUSE the Israeli leadership had led the unbelieving portion of Israel into apostasy, they were taking the mark by refusing to believe Jesus was Messiah. (i.e.: If you won't take the mark of God and worship Him, you will take the mark of the beast and worship him. It was not a literal stamp, it was an action. They were replacing the TRUE GOD with a god of their own making (as apostate Israel had done over and over over again throughout their existence).

Christ HAS set up His earthly kingdom. Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within us. Furthermore, as it is written, the Kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Believers are HIS earthly kingdom, Christ reigns over us (and the rest of the world) from heaven at the Father's right hand. Jesus clearly stated that He had been given all authority in heaven and earth. HE is in charge. The Kingdom started 2000 plus years ago. It was given over unto the saints of the Most High at the destruction of the Old Jewish Order in 70 AD. When Rome was defeated and apostate Israel punished, we were ushered into the Kingdom. The marriage supper of the Lamb occurred (Rev 19), it was a SPIRITUAL thing. We began to reign WITH him 'in the heavenly places' and that reign was and IS manifested on the earth by and through our good deeds. We are supposed to influence societies, teach the Gospel and give peace to men in their hearts by reconciling them to God through Christ, which the Church set out to do. It's trickle down at its finest. You tell someone, they get saved and tell others and the process repeats itself. Some of those saved people get called to govern. Some get called to medicine. Some get called to education and so forth and so on. IF a wicked ruler comes up, and a wicked nation arises, it's the job of Christian nations to put it down. (As was done with Hitler.) But now, Gog is loose, gathering up his army, attacking the people of God (the Holy City) and surrounding it, Does he succeed? No. Not ultimately. Because Christ will return when Gog and Magog reach the point where they have us surrounded. He will burn them up.

The Church will not BE raptured. The whole Church will never be raptured, because some of us are dead in Christ and only a live saint can be translated (raptured). The resurrection of the righteous occurs first, followed immediately by the rapture of any living Believers AT THE LAST DAY. Look at what Paul says:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

First the dead, THEN THE LIVE. You aren't going anywhere until the last day. unless you die first. IF you're alive on the last day, THEN you will get raptured. (Personally, I think the number of translated saints will be very small.)

The apostasy hasn't taken place yet? Yeah, right. One 'church' after another ordaining homosexuals, changing the Bible to suit gender, or taking out parts about hell, or claiming the BIble is flawed; sexual misconduct out the wazoo, Churches claiming God wants us rich, Churches claiming abortion is OK. Churches claiming Christ was only a man. But the apostasy hasn't happened yet? ON WHAT PLANET!? You're right in the middle of it man!

The one world government was Rome. Rome ruled the known world. The Fourth Beast IS THE LAST BEAST. THERE ARE NO MORE. Rome was the last great empire. THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER.

[spiritman]

never EVER said that Nero OR Antiochus were 'the antichrist.' I have gone out of my way to tell you what John has said concerning antichrist. Antichrist has NOTHING TO DO WITH REVELATION. Antichrist is not mentioned in Revelation. Antichrist is only EVER mentioned in John's letters. The term is used 5 times in the WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT. Modern teachers have built an entire doctrine around a myth and a misunderstanding. I invite you to read I John and II John for definition of who is antichrist is. Hint: It is not a future dictator.

I understand that you are techically not saying that Nero, or Antiochus are the anti-chirst, but your taking the concepts in the scripture that most theologians connect with the anti-chirst and you are spliting them up. For example when you said that Nero's followers referred to him as the Beast, or that antiochus defamed the temple etc etc, these actions are attibuted to the anti-christ.

Also. Even though the term anti-chirst is only refered to 5 times as you say in the new testament; are you saying that if the name or the terminology is not there then in that verse is not speaking of the anti-christ?

So what you are saying is that since the word anti-christ is in 1John; but not in the book of Revelation, 13:11-17 and 2nd Thess 2:3-11; that these concepts in the latter 2 books are not speaking of the anti-chirst correct?

Are you saying that the ant-christ is not a future prince? But a large group of people that have denied the faith? I submit to you that they are both. Look at 2 Thess 2:3-11

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming ;

9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

Verses 10 & 11 above is describing the spirit of anti-christ that will be upon most of the earth. verse 3; is talking about the falling away of the church it will turn to wickedness, it also decribes a man, one man, that will be revealed. He is called the lawless one or Son of destruction. Notice the words man (singular one man) not men (pural, more than one person). Notice in verse 3 the word Son; ( Singular One son); not Sons ( Pural more than one son).

verse 8 : talks about a battle with Jesus Christ Himself it says ; " The Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming, and in case we are wondering who Jesus will be battling let's skip down to verse 9 it reads; " The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan". Again The ONE (Singular)

Just One; Not two or many, or group of people; however this will happen as well.

We can also connect 2Thess 2:3-11 with Revelation chapter 19:17-21.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 19:17-21 (KJV)

Verse 17 tells you that it is God doing this.

Verse 18 describes the army of the ant-christ (The beast) in verse 20 and his false prophet who gave the mark of the beast will be cast live into a lake of fire.

Verse 19 describe the rest of the anti-christ's army will be slain with the sword.

Can we connect the term beast anywhere else in scripture? Dan 7:11 (KJV) 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As we see here Revelation 19: 20 speaks of the destiny of the beast; that he will be thrown into a lake of fire, now we see here in Daniel 7:11, the beast that will be given to the burning flame. Horn is a symble for the anti-chirst, notice he has a physical body, and he is slain, and his body destoryed. This is the same beast that is in Revelation 19: 20.

Now so that there won't be any confusion about which beast is being referred to in Revelation 19:20, and Daniel 7:11; Daniel 7:12 tells us what happens to the other beasts

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Also addressing the fact that just because the term is not used in that particular verse or chapter, the conclusion that that's not what it's referring to. I give you Gen 1:26 (NASB)

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Do you believe in the Trinity? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, well that term is not here, but the concept is. As a matter of fact the word Trinity is NO Where in the Bible.

But the concept is in the above verse, and several other verses.

It just goes to show just because the term is not there, if the concept is there, and you can connect it with other scripture it is a fact.

Peace and Joy to you

Bob

[spiritman]

The Church will not BE raptured. The whole Church will never be raptured, because some of us are dead in Christ and only a live saint can be translated (raptured). The resurrection of the righteous occurs first, followed immediately by the rapture of any living Believers AT THE LAST DAY. Look at what Paul says:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

First the dead, THEN THE LIVE. You aren't going anywhere until the last day. unless you die first. IF you're alive on the last day, THEN you will get raptured. (Personally, I think the number of translated saints will be very small.)

Perhaps you should have asked me my view on the rapture before you made it look like I don't agree with the scripture above, I have no problem with the view of the rapture above. So why you made it look like I have a problem with this view

The apostasy hasn't taken place yet? Yeah, right. One 'church' after another ordaining homosexuals, changing the Bible to suit gender, or taking out parts about hell, or claiming the BIble is flawed; sexual misconduct out the wazoo, Churches claiming God wants us rich, Churches claiming abortion is OK. Churches claiming Christ was only a man. But the apostasy hasn't happened yet? ON WHAT PLANET!? You're right in the middle of it man!

Poor wording on my part. Actually what I meant to say was the apostasy is not complete yet. If it were completed the church, that is physically dead would have been resurrected, and the rest that are alive would be raptured. Sorry about that.

The one world government was Rome. Rome ruled the known world. The Fourth Beast IS THE LAST BEAST. THERE ARE NO MORE. Rome was the last great empire. THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER.

Actually let's use Nebuchadnezzar dream of the Statue this is the dream God sent him; to show him how many earthly kingdom's there would be.

Daniel's interpretation of the dream beings in Daniel chapter 2 verse 31. I will not paste it here for time saving.

The nations:

1. Head of Gold

2 Breast and arms of silver.

3.thighs of brass.

4.Legs of Iron.

5.Feet and toes of Iron and clay.

I will not go into the kingdom of christ here since everyone knows that the rock cut out without hands is Christ coming to take His thrown on the earth.

for this discussion I will limit it to the earthly nations.

1. Head of Gold; In Daniel chapter 2 verse 38; Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar that he is the head of Gold. There's one nation.

2. Breast and arms of silver; In Daniel chapter 5 we see that Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar's son lifted up himself against the Lord of heaven, a pair of hands come out of no where and began writing on the wall. The king sent for Daniel and had the words translated, here is the interpretation;

Daniel chapter 5:24-38; 24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.

25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. This is kingdom # 2

3. thighs of Brass: Next in Daniel chapter 2 we see the thighs of brass, while Daniel doesn't say straight out who this kingdom is in Daniel chapter 2, if we do a topical study in Daniel chapter 8 we see another instance in which Daniel has a vision, and in this vision we see a Ram with two horn, and a goat. The ram represents media/persia, and goat represents Greece or back then what was called Grecia. Daniel 8:20-21. Now the goat comes against the Ram with two horns, and destroys it.

If you read the history on media/persia; you will see that one of the two countries was stronger then the other. This is the symbolism of the two horns on the ram.

This Kingdom # 3.

4. legs of Iron: While no where in scripture does it actually say , that Rome conquered Greece, you can see this by reading extra Biblical sources such as Flavius Josephus, a 1st century historian. The Roman empire eventually mixed in with other cultures and lost its status as a world empire. Here is a link about Rome. click here This is kingdom # 4

5. Feet mixed with Iron and clay: While the meaning in Daniel's dream speaks of Legs of Iron; the next nation to rule is Feet of iron, mixed with clay. How do we know that this is not the same Roman Empire that existed in the 2nd 3rd and 4th centuries? Well first off, the body part spoken of in the kings dream for the Roman empire is that of legs, and Now we are referring to feet, and toes a different body part.

If we follow the way the entire interpretation has been going; every time a body part is changed, it usually means that it is speaking of a different county for example: Head = Babylon, Breast = Media/Persia, thighs=Greece etc etc. However in the verse that is referring to the feet and toes of Iron mixed with clay, one of the elements are reused.

Iron is reused, this is referring to the Roman Empire, but the Roman empire in the 20th century is nothing like the Roman Empire of the 4th century. So this means that The old Roman empire will be revised, but not as strong as it was before. here is the verse. Dan 2:41-43 (NASB)

41 "In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

42 "As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

43 "And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. Kingdom # 5.

Treaty of Rome: After the end of the Second World War, moves towards European integration were seen by many as an escape from the extreme forms of nationalism which had devastated the continent.[20] One such attempt to unite Europeans was the European Coal and Steel Community which, while having the modest aim of centralised control of the previously national coal and steel industries of its member states, was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe".[21] The originators and supporters of the Community include Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman, Paul Henri Spaak and Alcide de Gasperi. The founding members of the Community were Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany.[22]

In 1957, these six countries signed the Treaties of Rome which extended the earlier cooperation within the European Coal and Steel Community and created the European Economic Community, (EEC) establishing a customs union and the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom) for cooperation in developing nuclear energy.[22] In 1967 the Merger Treaty created a single set of institutions for the three communities, which were collectively referred to as the European Communities (EC), although commonly just as the European Community.[23] Read more click here

As you can see above: Rome is now apart of a new empire, mixed with different cultures, (Iron mixed with clay) The E.U is definitely, what Daniel is describing in Daniel chapter 2. Rome will revive but it will be mixed with different cultures, weakening it some what. Even though this is the case, this federation will grow to become the new superpower of the world, dwarfing even the United States.

Is it any wonder the E.U is looking for that one man to lead all the E.U states? Read here about Tony Blair's run for E.U president. click here I don't know how many there will be until this man of lawlessness arises, but I do believe that according to scripture one of the leaders of this E.U is going to be the antichrist.

Blessings

Bob