Kalat Statue

[Guest shiloh357]

You clearly stress you Jewish heritage, but within orthodox Judaism such statues have been seen as a violation of the commandements against the use of graven images, an approach adopted by many early Protestants.

Demonstrate that the statue was created to be worshipped. Creating a statue is not wrong, only creating it to be worshipped and then actually worshipping it would be wrong.

[amor]

You clearly stress you Jewish heritage, but within orthodox Judaism such statues have been seen as a violation of the commandements against the use of graven images, an approach adopted by many early Protestants.

Demonstrate that the statue was created to be worshipped. Creating a statue is not wrong, only creating it to be worshipped and then actually worshipping it would be wrong.

Go to any Remembrance day/Memorial day service and you will see many bowing to and making offerings of wreaths either to pagan-style altars or idols such as these. You may have sympathy withose taking part in these rites, but as I intimated before, I can't see how they can be squared with the ten commandment where the making of and bowing down to graven images of things in heaven, on the earth or in the seas is prohibited.

[Guest shiloh357]

Go to any Remembrance day/Memorial day service and you will see many bowing to and making offerings of wreaths either to pagan-style altars or idols such as these.

You didn't demonstrate that this is an idol or meant to be treated as such.

the ten commandments only apply to statues made for the express purpose of respresenting a pagan diety. Demonstrate that this is statue represents a pagan diety to be worshipped.

Furthermore placing wreaths at a memorial is not worship. It is a sign of respect, and remembrance. It is does not follow that a person who does such a thing is worshipping a pagan diety.

This is just a desparate attempt on your part to discredit an Iraqi who like a lot of Iraqis (except the radical factions) actually appreciates what America did by getting rid of Hussein.

[nebula]

Go to any Remembrance day/Memorial day service and you will see many bowing to and making offerings of wreaths either to pagan-style altars or idols such as these. You may have sympathy withose taking part in these rites, but as I intimated before, I can't see how they can be squared with the ten commandment where the making of and bowing down to graven images of things in heaven, on the earth or in the seas is prohibited.

You mean like the Viet Nam memeorials?

People put wreaths at the statue to honor their friends who died in combat. They bow their heads. likewise, to either silently reflect or to pray. Again, it is not to the statue. Rather, it's like a grave site - since they can't visit the grave site of their friend or family memeber to put a wreath at, they go to the statue or other memorial to honor the life of the love one.

Which is a far cry from, "O bless me, statue! Save me, statue!"

[amor]

Go to any Remembrance day/Memorial day service and you will see many bowing to and making offerings of wreaths  either to pagan-style altars or idols such as these. You may have sympathy withose taking part in these rites, but as I intimated before, I can't see how they can be squared with the ten commandment where the making of and bowing down to graven images of things in heaven, on the earth or in the seas is prohibited.

You mean like the Viet Nam memeorials?

People put wreaths at the statue to honor their friends who died in combat. They bow their heads. likewise, to either silently reflect or to pray. Again, it is not to the statue. Rather, it's like a grave site - since they can't visit the grave site of their friend or family memeber to put a wreath at, they go to the statue or other memorial to honor the life of the love one.

Which is a far cry from, "O bless me, statue! Save me, statue!"

But the point is making such images and performing rituals at there site is against the teaching of the Bible As this extract from Exodus shows

[nebula]

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Yes - there is has been quite a controversy throughout time over this. I remember a thing on one of the educational channels about Eastern Orthodox churches which had beautiful murals representing Christ and I think other people of the Bible. Somewhere along the way, later religioius leaders deemed hem to be sin because of these verses above, and so all the murals were destroyed.

In fact, these verse have been used against artists throughout time in church history. I mean, what do artists make images of other than likenesses of things?

Ironically, the Israelites after this were instructred to create the Ark of the Covenant - which included likenesses of two cherubim ( a thing that is in heaven).

Which indicates to me that there is a distinction between an item of worship and an item that memorializes.

But be honest here, amor. :suspect:

Your argument is not against a statue. Your argument is against this statue. Your argument is against anything to do with a positive representation of the US's role in Iraq - isn't it? Your intent is to discredit an Iraqi thanking the Americans for what they have done - isn't it?

(I say this based on other posts I have read from you. I notice you are very selective in what topics you post on - subjects dealing with Islam and with Iraq.) This is your real focus - isn't it?

[Scudbuddy]

Amor,

Do you believe it is sin to have a picture of your loved ones?

Do you believe it is idol worship to have a wedding album?

Do you believe it is sin to have a tombstone?

"To the Just, all things are just, to the impure, all things impure."

[amor]

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Yes - there is has been quite a controversy throughout time over this. I remember a thing on one of the educational channels about Eastern Orthodox churches which had beautiful murals representing Christ and I think other people of the Bible. Somewhere along the way, later religioius leaders deemed hem to be sin because of these verses above, and so all the murals were destroyed.

In fact, these verse have been used against artists throughout time in church history. I mean, what do artists make images of other than likenesses of things?

Ironically, the Israelites after this were instructred to create the Ark of the Covenant - which included likenesses of two cherubim ( a thing that is in heaven).

Which indicates to me that there is a distinction between an item of worship and an item that memorializes.

But be honest here, amor. :suspect:

Your argument is not against a statue. Your argument is against this statue. Your argument is against anything to do with a positive representation of the US's role in Iraq - isn't it? Your intent is to discredit an Iraqi thanking the Americans for what they have done - isn't it?

(I say this based on other posts I have read from you. I notice you are very selective in what topics you post on - subjects dealing with Islam and with Iraq.) This is your real focus - isn't it?

1. I object to the romanticised image of the carnage of war that such statues portray it omits the real nastiness of what itis like to die or be injured in battle, it also with its focus on military casualties ignores the reality of civilian deaths.

2. As I have stated above I object to the way that such statues serve as a focus of religious rites that have their origins in Greek and Roman religion, rather than in Christianity. The fact that a minister/priest/pastor is often present does not mean that this form of worship, focusing as it do the death/sacrifice of young military heroes is not profoundly pagan. Their focus is as much on the heroic glory of war than it is on remembering/mourning the death of beloved indiviuduals. Why else would ceromonies commemorating death in the last two wars involve current serving soldiers, and children. It of the same ilk as the various religious rites carried out by groups such as the freemasons.

[amor]

But be honest here, amor. :suspect:

Your argument is not against a statue. Your argument is against this statue. Your argument is against anything to do with a positive representation of the US's role in Iraq - isn't it? Your intent is to discredit an Iraqi thanking the Americans for what they have done - isn't it?

(I say this based on other posts I have read from you. I notice you are very selective in what topics you post on - subjects dealing with Islam and with Iraq.) This is your real focus - isn't it?

I seem to have rattled your cage a little! Surprisingly enough I do tend to post on topics that interest me. Is that really so unusual?

[nebula]

I seem to have rattled your cage a little! Surprisingly enough I do tend to post on topics that interest me. Is that really so unusual?

No, I'm just trying to acertain what the real debate is about. With these on-line debates, it's hard to tell who a person really is and where they are coming from. Why do these topics interest you so much yet fellowship with Christians and the preaching of the Gospel do not?

So, I had asked.

Is your objection to the statue in and of itself? For then you would be against the figurines of the NY firemen raising the American flag, the Viet Nam nurses memorial, ceramic animal figurines, stuffed animals (i.e. teddy bears), paintings of loved ones, etc.

Is your problem with the artist - for years making statues of Hussein redeeming himself (from his perspective) by honoring those who liberated his country from Hussein? I mean - it is his country - can he not make whatever statue he wanted to represent what the American soldiers did? This was not an American portraying "our" side of the war. This was an Iraqi portraying his interpretation.

Are you offended that an Iraqi would be saying, "Thank-you!" to the American troops?

But the war - yes, is this not what burns you the most?

1. I object to the romanticised image of the carnage of war that such statues portray it omits the real nastiness of what itis like to die or be injured in battle, it also with its focus on military casualties ignores the reality of civilian deaths.

But again - this statue was made by an Iraqi - not an American. If he wanted to thank the troops - should that not be his choice to do so?

2. As I have stated above I object to the way that such statues serve as a focus of religious rites that have their origins in Greek and Roman religion, rather than in Christianity.

Just so I know where you are coming from - are you against the celebration of Christmas and Easter?

Do you know that the way Christianity conducts its worship services was modeled more after the Greek and Roman ways of worshiping their gods than the way the Jews worshiped God? What then shall we do with our church services?

But again - who performs religious rites to memorial statues?

The fact that a minister/priest/pastor is often present does not mean that this form of worship, focusing as it do the death/sacrifice of young military heroes is not profoundly pagan. Their focus is as much on the heroic glory of war than it is on remembering/mourning the death of beloved indiviuduals. Why else would ceromonies commemorating death in the last two wars involve current serving soldiers, and children. It of the same ilk as the various religious rites carried out by groups such as the freemasons.

I'm still at a loss as to how people "worship" these statues or what or who they represent?

When I have visited the Tomb of the Unknown soldier, I remember those who gave their lives to fight for freedom - freedoms that I enjoy. If the US had not stepped into WWII for instance - what would the world be like today? Would you want to live in a Europe controlled by the Nazi regime? So, I honor those men whose blood was spilled to free Europe from such tyranny. In other words, I am saying, "Thank-you," to them. Is saying, "Thank-you" to someone a worship?

When I visit the Viet Nam memorial, I mourn the loss of those lives who were taken for a stupid political struggle that could have been one if the politicians kept their noses out of it - or they shouldn't have sent the troops in the first place! And I pray for the survivors, who have to live with the memories of what happened and the way they were treated as outcasts when they got back home.

How are these "religious rites"?