One Way Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 728 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2004 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 whatsitmean, for some reason the post-tribbers think that God is going to pour out His wrath on His Son's bride. Not a nice thing to do as a Father, dontcha think?
whatsitmean Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 881 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2002 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 I do remember reading in some book that those who watch and pray may be counted worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the son of man. I hope LaHay didn't say that. Oh, I guess it couldn't have been him becasue I've never read any of his books.
One Way Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 728 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2004 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 I do remember reading in some book that those who watch and pray may be counted worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the son of man. I hope LaHay didn't say that. Oh, I guess it couldn't have been him becasue I've never read any of his books. Nope. That was our faithful Lord Jesus. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Blessings...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,108 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 751 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 whatsitmean, for some reason the post-tribbers think that God is going to pour out His wrath on His Son's bride. Not a nice thing to do as a Father, dontcha think? See thats the problem with the pre-trib lie, is that they confuse tribulation with God's Wrath. Do you consider the persecution of the saints Gods wrath? Jesus promised us tribulation in this world. Distress and Wrath are two differant things. Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. You are mixing Satans Wrath and persecutions as God's Wrath.
One Way Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 728 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2004 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 whatsitmean, for some reason the post-tribbers think that God is going to pour out His wrath on His Son's bride. Not a nice thing to do as a Father, dontcha think? See thats the problem with the pre-trib lie, is that they confuse tribulation with God's Wrath. Do you consider the persecution of the saints Gods wrath? Jesus promised us tribulation in this world. Distress and Wrath are two differant things. Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. You are mixing Satans Wrath and persecutions as God's Wrath. Negative, just the opposite actually. You see, the persecution Jesus promised us in this world comes from just that, the world. The Great Tribulation is where God pours out His wrath. That is where the misunderstanding is. The GT is God's wrath. Jesus promised us tribulation from this world, not from God.
gypc Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1964 Posted July 24, 2004 Keeping someone from something doesn't necessarily mean you take them out of their body. We are not subject to wrath, this is true but we are destin for persecution even to death. I ask all pre tribs one simple question and I always get the same answer: Is the pre-trb rapture the resurection? (dead in Christ rise first) The answer!!! They say yes. Ok, then when is the next resurection? They say....when Jesus comes to set up his kingdom on the earth. We have one problem with this teaching........the Bible says that there are only 2. One for the righteous and 1 for the wicked. We've been duped!! And yes, many will be discouraged and question things they thought they believed all their Christian life. When we are changed in a twinkling of an eye spoken by Paul in 1st Cor 15:51-52.......this will be the 1st. When? AT THE LAST TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please feel free to read it. In his love, Brian
Jedi4Yahweh Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,108 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 751 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 Keeping someone from something doesn't necessarily mean you take them out of their body. We are not subject to wrath, this is true but we are destin for persecution even to death. I ask all pre tribs one simple question and I always get the same answer: Is the pre-trb rapture the resurection? (dead in Christ rise first) The answer!!! They say yes. Ok, then when is the next resurection? They say....when Jesus comes to set up his kingdom on the earth. We have one problem with this teaching........the Bible says that there are only 2. One for the righteous and 1 for the wicked. We've been duped!! And yes, many will be discouraged and question things they thought they believed all their Christian life. When we are changed in a twinkling of an eye spoken by Paul in 1st Cor 15:51-52.......this will be the 1st. When? AT THE LAST TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please feel free to read it. In his love, Brian Exactly there is only 2 resurrection spoken of in the bible: one at the end of the Tribualtion mat. 24, mark13, and luke 21 and the Other is after the 1000yr reign of Christ. Rev. 20 There is no 3third resurrection so to be pre-trib you would have to believe in three ressurections of believers and unbelievers. Great Post gypc. JaSON
whatsitmean Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 881 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2002 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 Only two resurections? If Jesus was one, then that leaves us where? The first resurection is to life, but not in one event. The second is to death.
One Way Posted July 24, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 728 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2004 Status: Offline Posted July 24, 2004 I ask all pre tribs one simple question and I always get the same answer: Is the pre-trb rapture the resurection? (dead in Christ rise first) The answer!!! They say yes. Ok, then when is the next resurection? They say....when Jesus comes to set up his kingdom on the earth. We have one problem with this teaching........the Bible says that there are only 2. One for the righteous and 1 for the wicked. If the "dead in Christ" get risen, why would they need to get risen again? I don't get it. The righteous will only be raised (their glorified body) once. Remember, when it says "the dead in Christ shall rise first," this isn't saying that all previously dead believers are in soul sleep. For, we find that: 2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Believers who die in Christ immediately go to be with the Lord. This resurrection is speaking of the glorified body. When we are changed in a twinkling of an eye spoken by Paul in 1st Cor 15:51-52.......this will be the 1st. When? AT THE LAST TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please feel free to read it. Brian, this is just another misunderstanding of the text. The trumpets of Rev 8-11 are blown by angels, not God. The trump of God in 1 Thes 4 is blown by the Lord Himself. This is the same trump that Paul mentions in 1 Cor 15:52 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Therefore, the trumpet blowings are not all the same. Don't mistake the trumpets of Rev 8-11 which are blown by angels (which is not even at the end of the GT) with the trump of God that the Lord, Himself, will blow. Blessings...
One Way Posted July 25, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 728 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2004 Status: Offline Posted July 25, 2004 Exactly there is only 2 resurrection spoken of in the bible: one at the end of the Tribualtion mat. 24, mark13, and luke 21 and the Other is after the 1000yr reign of Christ. Rev. 20 There is no 3third resurrection so to be pre-trib you would have to believe in three ressurections of believers and unbelievers. Great Post gypc. Let's disect this, piece by piece: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Here we have the dead in Christ rising first, then those who are alive are "caught up." No problem so far. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. This passage makes it clear that we must enter the kingdom of God in our glorified body. 2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Here we find that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Hence, when we die we are immediately ushered into the presence of the Lord. Where is Jesus? He is in heaven, and we must first obtain our glorified body before we can go to heaven (look back to 1 Cor 15:52-53). Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Okay, read Rev 20:5. It shows the believers in Christ reigning with Him during the 1,000 years. Verse 5 says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." That is a statement. It doesnt' say they have been raised... yet. It then goes on to say "This is the first resurrection." What is? Look back to verse 4. All those who have reigned with Christ are part of the 1st resurrection, not "the dead lived not again until the thousand years." How do we know? Because look at what the very next verse says: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. It clearly statest that the 1st resurrection are those who are not subject to the 2nd resurrection. It then goes on to say, "but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." You see, the 1st resurrection is those who reign with Christ for 1,000 years. How could this be after the 1,000 reign if those in the 1st resurrection itself rule and reign with Christ during the 1,000 millenial period?!?! It's all right there... pretty clear if you disect it. Then: Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This portion of the text is only dealing with the unconverted. For, we know that the OT believers are already with Christ. And, we know that from the resurrection of Jesus onward all believers go to be with the Lord upon their death here on earth. In Rev 20:11-15 the unbelievers are judged. The 1st resurrection is not one single act, as we have just seen. The 2nd resurrection is. For the time being, those who die without Christ go to Hades and await this event. That is why it says in Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." These places are still full. I hope this clears it up. To recap on the 1st resurrection. It cannot be "after the 1,000' reign," because we have just seen that those reigning in the 1,000 kingdom are part of the 1st resurrection (Rev 20:6). Blessings...
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