"Going to heaven"...a misnomer of sorts

[Fez]

Heaven is where Jesus is. Hell is where He is not.

Simple really.

[Bold Believer]

Heaven is where Jesus is. Hell is where He is not.

Simple really.

Conceptually, perhaps Fez, but since Jesus is not here, by your statement, we're in Hell now. Heaven, all three of them, are real places.

OC...I never said Christians don't go to heaven when they die; I said that heaven is not our ultimate destination. Heaven is the place of spirits. Earth is being redone and made new expressly for the purpose of giving us a dwellingplace that will accommodate our resurrected bodies.

[Guest shiloh357]

Was Moses not shown the pattern of things in Heaven?

Yes, but he was not shown a patter of Heaven.

Yes, there is a Holy of Holies in Heaven...my assertion is that it is the Third Heaven.

Actually, your asertion was that the third heaven IS the Holy of Holies. I believe the Holy of Holies is in the third heaven as well. I don't see where your assertion that we will not be allowed into the third heaven carries in merit.

The second heaven is the realm of spiritual beings and the earth the outer court in the layout of the universe.

Conjecture. The Bible does not assign those values to the tabernacle structure.

No one was allowed into the Holy of Holies except the High priest. We are priests and Christ is the High Priest. Only Messiah can enter the Holy of Holies.

That is true, but that still does not really address your original assertion about the third heaven being the Holy of Holies, which is what my comments were working off of.

[Bold Believer]

Was Moses not shown the pattern of things in Heaven?

Yes, but he was not shown a patter of Heaven.

Yes, there is a Holy of Holies in Heaven...my assertion is that it is the Third Heaven.

Actually, your asertion was that the third heaven IS the Holy of Holies. I believe the Holy of Holies is in the third heaven as well. I don't see where your assertion that we will not be allowed into the third heaven carries in merit.

The second heaven is the realm of spiritual beings and the earth the outer court in the layout of the universe.

Conjecture. The Bible does not assign those values to the tabernacle structure.

No one was allowed into the Holy of Holies except the High priest. We are priests and Christ is the High Priest. Only Messiah can enter the Holy of Holies.

That is true, but that still does not really address your original assertion about the third heaven being the Holy of Holies, which is what my comments were working off of.

Well, let's look at what the Holy of Holies was. It was the portion of the tabernacle FOR GOD ALONE. Now, the Third Heaven is also the province of God alone. This is why I believe that the entire universe is laid out like the tabernacle and that the Third Heaven is the Holy of Holies of the entire cosmos. Does that help you to understand what I am trying to convey?

The second heaven is a mystery to me. It appears to be the abode of spiritual beings such as angels and souls awaiting resurrection. The heavens are the throne of God and the earth his footstool, the Scriptures tell us. I suspect the second heaven is the portion of the universe beyond what we see with the naked eye.

The 'first' heaven would be the atmosphere, as near as I can tell. Satan and the demons seem to lurk there. THe Scriptures call satan the prince of the power of the air. For lack of a better phrase, that's where he hangs out. (Except during his little imprisonment in the bottomless pit.) The atmospheric heavens seem really to be part of the outer court/earth realm.

The outer court of the tabernacle could be accessed by anyone, Jew or Gentile. That is why I tend to liken it to the earth. Believers and non-believers alike inhabit earth.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well, let's look at what the Holy of Holies was. It was the portion of the tabernacle FOR GOD ALONE.

Yes.

Now, the Third Heaven is also the province of God alone.

Where does the Bible say that? I mean where does the Bible claim that the Holy of Holies is a picture of the third heaven.

This is why I believe that the entire universe is laid out like the tabernacle and that the Third Heaven is the Holy of Holies of the entire cosmos. Does that help you to understand what I am trying to convey?

I understand what you are saying. What I am not seeing is actual biblical corroboration. What I am seeing is you assigning values to the tabernacle that are not assigned by Scripture.

The second heaven is a mystery to me. It appears to be the abode of spiritual beings such as angels and souls awaiting resurrection.

Why does it appear that way to you?

The heavens are the throne of God and the earth his footstool, the Scriptures tell us. I suspect the second heaven is the portion of the universe beyond what we see with the naked eye.

Based on what?

The 'first' heaven would be the atmosphere, as near as I can tell. Satan and the demons seem to lurk there. THe Scriptures call satan the prince of the power of the air. For lack of a better phrase, that's where he hangs out. (Except during his little imprisonment in the bottomless pit.) The atmospheric heavens seem really to be part of the outer court/earth realm.

The outer court of the tabernacle could be accessed by anyone, Jew or Gentile. That is why I tend to liken it to the earth. Believers and non-believers alike inhabit earth.

Yes, but again, all I am seeing is conjecture. All I am seeing is you assigning certain things to the tabernacle to make it fit into a "heaven/tabernacle" symbolic structure that you have erected. What you are presenting is subjective and not objectively evidenced in Scripture.

[Bold Believer]

Moses was given the pattern of the tabernacle by God.

Reading Old Testament descriptions of worship, it seems to me that the Holy of Holies and Third heaven correspond to one another. The tabernacle is a miniature of the greater reality which was given for our understanding. ONLY the High Priest could go in there. It's a given that God dwells in the Third Heaven, and in the tabernacle concept, the Holy of Holies is His living place. I therefore conclude that one is the model of the other.

As to the second heaven, the only real descriptions we have of it are in Revelation. Mentioned in those descriptions are a myriad of spiritual beings, so my conclusion is that the second heaven is their living place. NO human is ever mentioned as being there. John was shown the second heaven, but as for whether he actually set foot in it is open for debate.

[Guest shiloh357]

Moses was given the pattern of the tabernacle by God.

Reading Old Testament descriptions of worship, it seems to me that the Holy of Holies and Third heaven correspond to one another.

Again, I understand that it appears that way to you. My question pertains to the corroboration from Scripture that supports that assertion. We cannot arbitrarily assign values to these patterns. What Scriptural teachings show that the third heaven is the Holy of Holies?

The tabernacle is a miniature of the greater reality which was given for our understanding. ONLY the High Priest could go in there.

That is true.

It's a given that God dwells in the Third Heaven, and in the tabernacle concept, the Holy of Holies is His living place. I therefore conclude that one is the model of the other.

There is the problem. You have not really shown any link from Scripture that demonstrates the Holy of Holies directly corresponds to the third heaven. That is a conjecture you have drawn based on values you are assigning to the text.

Where is the third heaven assigned any characteristics of the Holy of Holies in the Scriptures?

[Bold Believer]

Moses was given the pattern of the tabernacle by God.

Reading Old Testament descriptions of worship, it seems to me that the Holy of Holies and Third heaven correspond to one another.

Again, I understand that it appears that way to you. My question pertains to the corroboration from Scripture that supports that assertion. We cannot arbitrarily assign values to these patterns. What Scriptural teachings show that the third heaven is the Holy of Holies?

The tabernacle is a miniature of the greater reality which was given for our understanding. ONLY the High Priest could go in there.

That is true.

It's a given that God dwells in the Third Heaven, and in the tabernacle concept, the Holy of Holies is His living place. I therefore conclude that one is the model of the other.

There is the problem. You have not really shown any link from Scripture that demonstrates the Holy of Holies directly corresponds to the third heaven. That is a conjecture you have drawn based on values you are assigning to the text.

Where is the third heaven assigned any characteristics of the Holy of Holies in the Scriptures?

1. From Paul's comments, it's obvious that his situation was quite extraordinary. God allowed Paul to be in the Third Heaven temporarily.

2. We know that NO ONE is allowed into the HoH except the High Priest at the prescribed times.

3. We know that God speaks from the Mercy Seat contained there (in the HoH). The Mercy Seat is in the Third Heaven and the HoH is the shadow of that reality.

4. The HoH is occupied by God

5. The Third Heaven is occupied by God

6. No one may enter the Third Heaven without permission

7. No one may enter the HoH without permission, even to the point of removing a High Priest who might have for whatever reason died in the service. There was a rope around his ankle by which he was to be extracted in that event.

8. The penalty for violating the prohibition of entry for either location: Death.

[Guest shiloh357]

1. From Paul's comments, it's obvious that his situation was quite extraordinary. God allowed Paul to be in the Third Heaven temporarily.

Yes, but God doesn't make exceptions; He doesn't compromise His holiness, ever. So that alone seems to present a problem.

2. We know that NO ONE is allowed into the HoH except the High Priest at the prescribed times.

3. We know that God speaks from the Mercy Seat contained there (in the HoH). The Mercy Seat is in the Third Heaven and the HoH is the shadow of that reality.

4. The HoH is occupied by God

5. The Third Heaven is occupied by God

Yes, but that simply means that there is a Holy of Holies in the third heaven. You still have not made the case that the third heaven IS the Holy of Holies. All you can say with certainty is that Heaven contains the original Holy of Holies after which the earthly one was patterned.

6. No one may enter the Third Heaven without permission

That is not what the Bible says. Everyone who is saved goes to the third heaven automatically.

7. No one may enter the HoH without permission, even to the point of removing a High Priest who might have for whatever reason died in the service. There was a rope around his ankle by which he was to be extracted in that event.

That is a myth. The High Priest had no such rope. If the High Priest had walked into the Holy of Holies with anything other than what the Bible prescribes, he would have been killed instantly.

8. The penalty for violating the prohibition of entry for either location: Death.

Where does the Bible give the penalty of death for entering the third heaven?

[Miss Elly]

Well Im going to heaven where the streets are paved with gold and the river of life is lined with 12 fruit trees and I get to travel the universe.

This earth is not going to be renewed but rolled up like a scroll and discarded as trash, God is making a new earth, but I doubt it will be so that we inhabit it in any fashion like here.

We will have glorified bodies that do not need food and can be transported accross the universe at will.

Seriously you think we are coming back here after being raptured? God is going to erase all the sorry and sad memories of such a sorry and sad place.IMO

The streets paved with gold are in the Celestial City (John Bunyan) and the Heavenly Jersualem comes down and G-d dwells among men in the New heavens and the New Earth...the impression I get is that He literally causes His dwelling place to be transferred from Heaven to Earth, and choses to dwell amongst men.

I love reading any articles about space I can find, and looking at pictures of planets, galaxies, nebulas, etc. etc. It scares me a little sometimes what I can understand of its vastness. God is powerful indeed to create all this , in fact I've wondered if the universe with so many gad-zillions of galaxies, etc. is really God's trashcan , ha ha. Did we really need all that stuff for the world to rotate? It so interesting / fascinating to learn about. Having said that, I have to wonder, why would God choose to live on this little planet after he re-creates the earth? After, all he has all that room and that's just what we see. Does this sound crazy? I don't want to live on a new earth without God with me and I believe he will be. I believe in heaven, I wonder if God will move his heavenly realm to earth????