The confusion Of Post-trib belief

[Guest dustycanvas]

Dad Ernie,

So in your words how do explain away 2 thess? You can't do it without missenterpretiting the scripture adn tearing it to pieces. Mark my words, there will be a third temple. And the Anti Christ is going to be a person...this has been explained about a thousand times on this website.

I dont mean to sound aggitated, but i just can't handle preterist thinking. Because there is absolutely no way to change there way of thinking...you can have all the scriptures that back you up and still they will tear them apart.

Sabrina

[Trinity]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Revelation 13:1-10 (NIV) And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?" 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. 9 He who has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Daniel 7:24-26 (NIV) The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. 26 "'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.

Daniel 8:9-25 (NIV) Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12 Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled--the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?" 14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." 15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice from the Ulai calling, "Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision." 17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end." 18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet. 19 He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. 23 "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

Daniel 9:27 (NIV) He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Daniel 11:36-45 (NIV) "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his fathers he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price. 40 "At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Nubians in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

The "time of wrath" referenced in Daniel 11:36 is the seven bowls of wrath spoken of in Revelation. In verse 41 "the Beautiful Land" is Israel, in verse 45 "the beautiful holy mountain" is Mount Moriah between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea.

Daniel 12:11 (NIV) "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Matthew 24:15-21 (NIV) "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

Mark 13:14-20 (NIV) "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Luke 21:20 (NIV) "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Psalms 79 (NIV) A psalm of Asaph. O God, the nations have invaded your inheritance; they have defiled your holy temple, they have reduced Jerusalem to rubble. 2 They have given the dead bodies of your servants as food to the birds of the air, the flesh of your saints to the beasts of the earth. 3 They have poured out blood like water all around Jerusalem, and there is no one to bury the dead. 4 We are objects of reproach to our neighbors, of scorn and derision to those around us. 5 How long, O LORD? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire? 6 Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the kingdoms that do not call on your name; 7 for they have devoured Jacob and destroyed his homeland. 8 Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need. 9 Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake. 10 Why should the nations say, "Where is their God?" Before our eyes, make known among the nations that you avenge the outpoured blood of your servants. 11 May the groans of the prisoners come before you; by the strength of your arm preserve those condemned to die. 12 Pay back into the laps of our neighbors seven times the reproach they have hurled at you, O Lord. 13 Then we your people, the sheep of your pasture, will praise you forever; from generation to generation we will recount your praise.

Oh and he will be a man, Because he will claim to be the 1 and ONLY CHRIST

[Trinity]

theres alil back up about a 3rd Tempel, and he will be a man

[Guest dustycanvas]

The Bible is SOOOOOOOOOOOO clear on this matter. You have severely NOT want to believe what you are reading to wanna and try to reason this away.

I mean, Daniel 7....Matthew 24....they are Crystal Clear!

[Guest shadow2b]

-My advice: lay off the fiction books and return to sound doctrine.

-ahhhhhh---JED--I love it--2nd tyme thys mawnin I got a big healthy Laugh from brothers on these Boards----thanky-kindly Brothuh-SUH-- great ad-vice too Bro. :oww: :hug: :hug:

[Guest shadow2b]

-Although I agree on the danger of basing theology on fiction (Left Behind), I do concur that the pre-trib position is the only one that allows the bible to be taken literally and the only position that doesn't insist on calling God and Jesus both liars.

-NOW--NOW--NOW--Brother OW ----sir---That's just a bit-harsh & a skosh-Untrue--

-I meen NO Christian IS Calling JESUS & GOD LIARS---tsk.tsk.tsk.-fer-shayme-fer-shayme-fer-shayme---oh & "That" assessment equating Christians who doNOT accept tha pre-Trib-escapist-Theology as calling GOD & JESUS--Liars-- is jes a TAD-meen---ain't it BRO.??-

-Jesus said that he would come back as a thief... under post-trib this cannot be true.

God said to Abraham that He would not judge the righteous with the wicked... under post-trib this also cannot be true.

-WeLLLLL, Brother OW--suh-yas aire jes about a 1/4-Bubble OFF on yo assessment of what JESUS SAID---What JESUS DID SAY IS:-

-Mark.13.34.thru.37-------

-Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 

-For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his

-house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and

-commanded the porter to watch. 

-Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house

-cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 

-Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 

-And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch

-What JESUS said was"Watch LEST HE comes"Suddenly" & *FIND-YOU-Sleeping*-Implication being--IF YOU WATCH--HE WILL COME FOR YOU BUT YOU WILL NOT BE Asleep--YOU will be Awake--Ready-& Looking For His Coming----RIGHT??

-IN the following verses-JESUS states{When YOU SEE -the abomination of desolation}---Now WHY would HE say {When You SEE}IF You Were-NOT-Here To SEE??hmmmm??-This is pure Gospel from OUR LORD & SAVIOUR'S Own Lips--

-DO you really "Think" JESUS would tell US to-"Watch" & To "See"IF WE were not able to "Watch" & To "See" IF WE were GONE??--Ya "SEE" The Rapture of the Church & the "Wrath of GOD"are TWO Different Events---The "Wrath of the devil"which is poured--out against The Church--& the "wrath of GOD"which is poured out against {UN Repentent-Sinners}This Wrath of GOD IS NOT the Great Tribulation--The Great-Tribulation IS The Wrath of the devil-Against the Church--the Saints----

-Mark.13.vss.14.thru.20------

-But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by

-Daniel the prophet,standing where it ought not, {let him that readeth understand}

-then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 

-And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither-

-therein, to take any thing out of his house: 

-And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 

-But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those -days! 

-And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 

-For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the

-beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 

-And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be

-saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the

-days.

-Now in vs.20-THE LORD-Specifically states: {For the ELECTS-SAKE-the days will be "shortened"{WHY??}Would HE have to "Shorten the days"For the Elect's-Sake" -IF NO Elect Were Here On The Earth-???-IF JESUS did-Not shorten the days for the Elect's-Sake there would be NO-Flesh left Alive on the Earth would there??-Sooooo--IF NO-Elect are on the Earth to be kept Alive Who are The-Elect-On the earth JESUS is Talking About??-How Many Groups of Elect's are there??

-{Enquiring-minds-want-to-know------OR Do They??}hmmmmm???

-2nd.Peter.3:vs.10--------

-But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the

-heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with

-fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

-MATT.25:vss.6.thru.13---------

-And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out

-to meet him.Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 

-And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out-

-But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us

-and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 

-And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were

-ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 

-Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 

-But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 

-Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the

-Son of man cometh.

-Again JESUS tells US to "Watch"---From "Where"are WE "Watching"??WHO are WE "Watching"for??OUR LORD'S "RETURN"-FOR HIS Church---HIS Bride---When Does HE Return For US??---

-MATT.24.vss.29.Thru.31--------

-Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be

-darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from

-heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

-And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then

-shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming

-in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

-And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they

-shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the

-other. 

-When Does JESUS Return for HIS Church--HIS-Bride--HIS Saints????

-{vs.29}IMMEDIATELY AFTER-THE-TRIBULATION--Clear--Concise--Precise--Plain-

-The Sun is Darkened--The-Moon-Gives-No-Light--Stars-Fall--The Power{S}-of-

-The-Heavens-Shaken---AND-"Then"Shall-Appear-The-Sign-of-"The-Son-OF-Man"

-The Tribes of earth shall "Mourn"--JESUS sends HIS Angels WITH the Sound of A

-Trumpet--{How-many Trumpets Sound??}TO Gather HIS Elect- From the Four-

-Winds{- The Elect on The Earth-}--From-One-End-Of-Heaven-To-The-Other{-The

-Saints-Who-Have-Died-In-The-LORD-}The Saints who have Come-Out-Of-The-

-Great-Tribulation-& Made-Their-Robes-White-In-The-BLOOD-Of-The-LAMB---

-REV.7.vss.13.Thru.17-------

-And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which

-are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 

-And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are

-they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made

-them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

-Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and

-night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 

-They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the

-sun light on them, nor any heat. 

-For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and

-shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears

-from their eyes.

-The Key-Verse in these Scriptures is:The Man asks John-Who are "These-That-Are-Arrayed-In-White-Robes"??-Answer---THESE{In White-Robes-}Are-They-Who-

-Came-Out-Of-{Went Thru.The Great-Tribulation-}Great-Tribulation---& These that "Went Thru. The Tribulation-&-Washed Their Robes White IN The-BLOOD-Of-THE-LAMB----These that Went Thru The Trib.--Serve GOD-Day-&-Night-IN HIS Temple----There is NO-Way--It can be Truthfully-Stated{*Come-out-of*-Means-did-Not -GO Thru.The Trib.}----

-WeLL ya can say that But that don't make it "True"---IF ya search in Strongs-Conc.--The words---Came---out--of----It will be Discovered That the statement--

-"Come-out-of"Translate out to -Went-Thru. Suffered-thru--Endured--mebby-so???-

-----I---Reckon--WeLLLLL, Happy-Trials to yas till we meet again-

[other one]

OOHHHhhhh, there you go again Shadow. Messin up a good augument with fact, scripture, logic and common sense....... what in the world are we going to do with you....... :t:

[One Way]

-IN the following verses-JESUS states{When YOU SEE -the abomination of desolation}---Now WHY would HE say {When You SEE}IF You Were-NOT-Here To SEE??hmmmm??-This is pure Gospel from OUR LORD & SAVIOUR'S Own Lips--

-DO you really "Think" JESUS would tell US to-"Watch" & To "See"IF WE were not able to "Watch" & To "See" IF WE were GONE??

Hey Shadow, thanks for posting. Let's look at a parallel account of this from Matthew:

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Jesus here was clearly speaking to the Jews/Israel because they are the only ones who would be concerned with the sabbath day.

We must take into account the whole counsel of God. Scripture interprets scripture and Matthew's account provides a bit more detail than Mark's.

There are answers to your other points to.

Blessings...

[Guest dustycanvas]

*** Just for the record, I never read the first of the Left Behind series simply because there was little truth in them! I had bought like the first 5 or 6 of them but then decided NOT to read them so, I sold them.

There is very little truth in what Tim Leheye write/and or teaches.

[Guest dustycanvas]

Shadow,

I could not of said it better myself.