Christianity and psychedelics

[nox]

Hey woulda put this in the appropriate area but apparently new members can only post here. Please move it!

Hey guys,

New here and I was hoping for some answers... I'm a little hesitant though because you never know where someone is coming from on the internet...

I'm a very "conservative" Christian in terms of theology... more or less straight up Calvinist (though I'm very aware that it's stupid to try to assume we can truly understand God), predestination and all that, but very much a left leaning libertarian when it comes to society in general, since I don't believe that we are mandated by God to judge others for sins like homosexuality when something as "simple" as gossiping at church is just as evil in his eyes. I also don't think there's anything Christlike about supporting big business and keeping out immigrants.

Not trying to start a political discussion though, just wanna give an idea of where I'm at.

Anyways, I live in Northern California (near San Francisco), I'm very into music and through the "scene" came into contact with a lot of people into psychedelics. I decided to try cannabis, just out of curiosity more than anything. I enjoyed it a lot and found most of the "anti marijuana" info out there to be straight up lies. It didn't affect my school work at all (3.6 GPA at a top private university) and at the time I was working a very high pressure sales job... if anything it allowed me to be more genuine to the potential customers I spoke with.

That's probably the biggest effect cannabis had on me... it made me more open and loving, and understanding (this effect lasted well after I had "smoked"... it genuinely altered my perception of reality in a very positive way). At the time I was dealing with severe anxiety and cannabis calmed me down a lot and made me feel like I'd finally found my "real personality". I'm still struggling with the anxiety, and I hope and pray that soon I will be free of it and not need anything at all (whether it be cannabis, or some sort of prescribed drug).

My friends and I would often spend hours after smoking discussing life and death, spiritual issues (most of them were what I would consider "seekers"), and just sharing the good times. I looked back at all the stuff I'm been fed in the DARE sessions in 5th grade and wanted to laugh. And the biggest question and I had was why alcohol was legal and this wasn't!

Anyways, a few months later, I got the opportunity to try 2c-e, another much lesser known legal psychedelic (technically cannabis IS a psychedelic, though it's much more easy going on most people), with properties similar to LSD. I've never had the slightest interest in cocaine, heroine or meth or any of the truly "evil" drugs that destroy lives... but psychedelics fascinated me. My friends told me about their incredible experiences of feeling at one with humanity and feeling incredible joy and awe at nature, and I just couldn't wait.

So I went into the woods and dosed and by myself one afternoon to see what it was all about. It started out with just feeling kinda slow but by the time it really kicked in I experienced an awe of God that I had never felt before. It was by far the most incredible experience of my life and I still feel grateful to have had it. In my opinion, what psychedelics do is they "pull back" the mental blocks that we have (the brain filters out most information so we don't overload) and so I was able to see the world more as it truly was. I spent the next 5 hours straight in the forest on my knees praising God for just being who he is. It was incredible.

And now, it kinda makes me wonder about all the negative attitudes the church has against psychedelics (again I stress here there is a MASSIVE difference between psychedelics and "hard drugs"), especially since virtually all of them are either plants or derived from plants (LSD is derived from ergot, a type of fungus), which God made. Now I know there's the argument that well, hemlock is a plant too that God made, but I think this is a little different. First off, although many studies in the 60s tried to prove their danger (especially the evil "Marijuana" which had a massive campaign launched against it), pretty much all recent medical studies have found them either relatively harmless or FAR below the danger incurred by regular use of alcohol or tobacco. One study I read stated that having a magic mushroom trip was about "twenty times safer than driving around the block". Google it if you don't believe me.

Most ironic of all was the Shafer commission which Nixon directed in an attempt to justify the "Drug War" he was soon to launch, which ended up recommending decriminalization (Nixon ended up ignoring this and covering it up):

[T]he criminal law is too harsh a tool to apply to personal possession even in the effort to discourage use. It implies an overwhelming indictment of the behavior which we believe is not appropriate. The actual and potential harm of use of the drug is not great enough to justify intrusion by the criminal law into private behavior, a step which our society takes only 'with the greatest reluctance.

The fact that fourteen out of 50 states already have medical marijuana programs is indicative to its benefits rather than its dangers.

I'm not trying to launch into a massive "pro psychedelics" speech here, just trying to get down to a simple question:

If Cannabis were to be legalized (which it looks soon to be in California which has it on the ballot) would it be against Christianity to use it? What about stronger psychedelics like shrooms? If you haven't ever used Cannabis please try to think before you speak too because it is nothing like alcohol intoxication. It does not make you "stupid", or violent, or reckless, it simply overwhelms you with deep thought. Thus I believe it does not fall under the Proverbs commandment to avoid drunkenness.

And to the argument that altering your mind with anything is against God then I ask what about music? Music, ESPECIALLY the repetitive drum based kind physiologically alters your actual brain chemistry and causes you to think differently (look it up, alpha waves). Is this wrong too?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing against Christianity about tripping or using cannabis is the fact that it's illegal (mostly, a few are legal like the one I tried), and we're supposed to be obey the government no matter how oppressive unless it directly violates Christianity. Something that was conveniently ignored by the way when the States revolted against the British Empire .

Is it not possible that God put cannabis on this planet for us to enjoy much as we enjoy fruit, wine, the natural high from running long distance, etc.?

What do you all think?

Edited December 10, 2009 by nox

[Cerebrus]

delte please

Edited December 10, 2009 by Cerebrus

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

My friends and I would often spend hours after smoking discussing life and death, spiritual issues (most of them were what I would consider "seekers"), and just sharing the good times.

Jesus spent alot of time with differing folks discussing spiritual issues too. However, what they were partaking of never stained Him.

Joh

[nox]

Grace to you,

My friends and I would often spend hours after smoking discussing life and death, spiritual issues (most of them were what I would consider "seekers"), and just sharing the good times.

Jesus spent alot of time with differing folks discussing spiritual issues too. However, what they were partaking of never stained Him.

Joh

Edited December 10, 2009 by nox

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

My friends and I would often spend hours after smoking discussing life and death, spiritual issues (most of them were what I would consider "seekers"), and just sharing the good times.

Jesus spent alot of time with differing folks discussing spiritual issues too. However, what they were partaking of never stained Him.

Joh

[Ovedya]

"...but I will not be brought under the power of anything." (1 Cor. 6:12)

It is completely absurd, and frankly foreign to all Biblical doctrine, to believe that any substance or source, natural or otherwise, could cause a believer to grow in the divine life. Certainly such substances or sources cannot impart life, and they certainly will not produce within the believer a deeper relationship with God, or any genuine appreciation of God's eternal salvation.

[nox]

Grace to you,

My friends and I would often spend hours after smoking discussing life and death, spiritual issues (most of them were what I would consider "seekers"), and just sharing the good times.

Jesus spent alot of time with differing folks discussing spiritual issues too. However, what they were partaking of never stained Him.

Joh

[Ovedya]

But in many ways I feel more "sober" on cannabis...

Then I might suggest to you that this is evidence of something more physiological than spiritual. Have you ever been checked for chemical imbalance?

[nox]

"...but I will not be brought under the power of anything." (1 Cor. 6:12)

It is completely absurd, and frankly foreign to all Biblical doctrine, to believe that any substance or source, natural or otherwise, could cause a believer to grow in the divine life. Certainly such substances or sources cannot impart life, and they certainly will not produce within the believer a deeper relationship with God, or any genuine appreciation of God's eternal salvation.

It's very easy for you to say that, since it's never happened to you. I think it's pretty arrogant of you to judge how "genuine" my appreciation of God's eternal salvation is.

I'm not saying that it would happen with most people, or should be attempted or anything like that... I was already a Christian well before all this, but what happened was real and yes it positively affected my spiritual life. My prayer life since that day has skyrocketed, since I feel it's all much more "real" than before. And no I haven't used any since then, it was a one time thing for me. I guess you can criticize me for "needing" anything to appreciate communion with God, but whatever, I'm just glad to be where I'm at now.

[nox]

But in many ways I feel more "sober" on cannabis...

Then I might suggest to you that this is evidence of something more physiological than spiritual. Have you ever been checked for chemical imbalance?

No I don't have the habit of going in to get my brain state checked

You misunderstand me. What I mean is that it gives me a clear headedness and insight into things that aren't achievable in a normal state of mind.

I'm not trying to say I KNOW I'm right here, I really don't, which is why I'm wondering what others' opinions are.

For me it's kinda like the same thing as masturbation (terrible comparison I know!) which is never condemned in the bible, yet is often paired with lust (but doesn't HAVE to be)

BTW: while I'm at it, what is the difference between pure sexual desire and lust? Is there a difference?

Sorry to go off on a tangent but don't feel like creating another whole thread.

Edited December 10, 2009 by nox