The Real 'Expelled'

[MorningGlory]

Um. . .no, that would be 100% wrong. Religious "freedom" as we understand it today was a post-Revolutionary War idea. Without such concepts England still would have founded colonies on the east coast. Our history would certainly be different, but no doubt there would be a history to speak of.

Lurker

No, Lurker, you are absolutely wrong. The Pilgrims came here at least 150 years before the Revolutionary War. Their

reason for emmigrating was, you guessed it, to find freedom to worship; something that was denied them in Britain.

[wyguy]

Um. . .no, that would be 100% wrong. Religious "freedom" as we understand it today was a post-Revolutionary War idea. Without such concepts England still would have founded colonies on the east coast. Our history would certainly be different, but no doubt there would be a history to speak of.

Lurker

No, Lurker, you are absolutely wrong. The Pilgrims came here at least 150 years before the Revolutionary War. Their

reason for emmigrating was, you guessed it, to find freedom to worship; something that was denied them in Britain.

You nailed it!

Pilgrims were dissenters from the state Church of England (aka; the Anglican Church).

But, when has the truth ever mattered to Lurker?

[MorningGlory]

Um. . .no, that would be 100% wrong. Religious "freedom" as we understand it today was a post-Revolutionary War idea. Without such concepts England still would have founded colonies on the east coast. Our history would certainly be different, but no doubt there would be a history to speak of.

Lurker

No, Lurker, you are absolutely wrong. The Pilgrims came here at least 150 years before the Revolutionary War. Their

reason for emmigrating was, you guessed it, to find freedom to worship; something that was denied them in Britain.

You nailed it!

Pilgrims were dissenters from the state Church of England (aka; the Anglican Church).

But, when has the truth ever mattered to Lurker?

I don't think he was being untruthful....just uninformed.

[e lansing]

Scientific theories cannot prove

It does not matter how long you polish a terd, it will always be a terd. Evolution is a terd that has been polished for a long time. hey if this makes you happy keep on polishing, at the you will be left holding a terd. Hey they are mesureable, testable, predicable, if these help you believe then polish on!

Did you not put any forethought into this?

Did you? just keep on polishing, keep polishing harder, and one day, you will still have a terd

If you don't like being corrected over and over again I suggest you learn the first time.

opinions do not equate correction! Just keep on polishing

IF IT WASNT FOR THE DESIRE OF THE FREEDOM FOR RELIGION AMERICA WOULD HAVE NO HISTORY TO SPEAK OF!!!

Um. . .no, that would be 100% wrong. Religious freedom[/quote

I think you have been polishing to many terds for to many years. i am stunnd that you believe what you typed about religious freedoms. But then again you like to polish terds

[artsylady]

Sorry. I forgot to do bump up that thread. Will do that now.

Ancient astronaut proponents believe people from space visited earth thousands of years ago and helped build things like the pyramids or the Nazca lines. Why would we even mention them in archaeology courses other than to say "some people think this. . .but they ignore huge swaths of evidence against it and have no actual evidence for it"? I'm not opposed to applying the same description to I.D. in biology classes if that's what you're asking

What would your reaction be if you learned that these people are casually mentioned in archaeology classes? How do these people think life originated on earth?

How many would be fired or persecuted if they signed it?

How many have actually given serious consideration to the alternative in order to make a decision on what they believe? My guess is most have not and will not.

Since exactly zero scientists have been fired for signing this document I'd say zero to your first question.

Perhaps the ones who signed it felt secure in their positions. Do you think scientists receiving grant money to prove evolution might be in trouble in signing such a thing?

.but I fail to see why anyone else should care.

What do you mean by this?

Honestly, give it a guess. Humor me. What percentage of scientists give adequate study to the intelligent design theory?

Why is my quess interesting?

[MorningGlory]

No, Lurker, you are absolutely wrong. The Pilgrims came here at least 150 years before the Revolutionary War. Their

reason for emmigrating was, you guessed it, to find freedom to worship; something that was denied them in Britain.

Oddly enough they practiced their particular brand of extreme puritanism without anyone bothering them in the Netherlands for over a decade before making the decision to come to America (For some reason a lot of blogs seem to forget that part). That decision was mostly influenced by desires to sustain their movement against what was perceived to be the subversive influence of Dutch cultural "extravagances". The Pilgrims went on to found an intensely repressive society. When you read through the language of colonial establishments in their entirety you do not find provisions for religious tolerance (there are a very few exceptions) until after the Revolutionary War, up until that point the clear picture that emerges from colonial governments is that of the old style of government endorsing a single religion and actively persecuting all those who differ. Seriously people, learn your history.

Lurker

The point being that they DID come here to be able to worship as they wished without persecution. Obviously, the Puritans were repressive and rigid but...that's the way they wanted to be. They didn't have any other religions within their ranks. As for the Netherlands, it was a minority that went there. Must you always try to be condescending? Must you always assume you're smarter, better informed, 100% gluten free or whatever? It's very tiresome and, I must add, a delusion on your part.

[e lansing]

Lurker do you believe that Jesus is who He says He is?[God} Where do you stand in terms of God and Jesus? It seems that God or the Idea of God fits into your theories when your theories can not provide answers, is this true? It also seems that if you wanted to help Christianity, you would by providing winning arguements for I.D. But based upon all of going back and forth, you are more intrested in shutting us down like the rest of the evolutionist.

e lansing

[MorningGlory]

The point being that they DID come here to be able to worship as they wished without persecution. Obviously, the Puritans were repressive and rigid but...that's the way they wanted to be. They didn't have any other religions within their ranks. As for the Netherlands, it was a minority that went there.

I don't dispute the fact that the Pilgrims (which were actually an extreme subset of puritanism), came to New England to create their own religious society away from any form of persecution or external pressure. That is perfectly true. It is, however, completely wrong to say they came here to establish "freedom of religion", there is no indication in any of the major charters and compacts from this era of this concept gaining acceptance until after the Revolutionary War.

Additionally, seeing as the ships that landed at Plymouth Rock originally left from Delfshaven in the Netherlands. They did stop in Southampton to load supplies and pick up some passengers, whom they called the "strangers", but these passengers were not affiliated religiously with the Pilgrims in any way, instead they were adventurers, pioneers, and indentured servants essentially hitching a ride.

Must you always try to be condescending? Must you always assume you're smarter, better informed, 100% gluten free or whatever? It's very tiresome and, I must add, a delusion on your part.

I know my history. . .I make no apologies for that.

Lurker

They did come here for religious freedom....for THEMSELVES! No one said anything about any other group. So you know history..so what? Wiki and $2.99 will get you the Wings Day special...to paraphrase a popular commercial. Do you treat your students like they're stupid and backward too?

[MorningGlory]

They did come here for religious freedom....for THEMSELVES! No one said anything about any other group.

I certainly did, here's a review of some of my statements on this subject:

Religious "freedom" as we understand it today was a post-Revolutionary War idea. Without such concepts England still would have founded colonies on the east coast. Our history would certainly be different, but no doubt there would be a history to speak of. (

Post #127

)

Religious tolerance was a post-Revolutionary War concept, prior to this colonies such as the Pilgrims at Plymouth came here to form their own repressive societies that were usually no more "tolerant" of alternate beliefs than the societies they fled. (

Post #134

)

I don't dispute the fact that the Pilgrims (which were actually an extreme subset of puritanism), came to New England to create their own religious society away from any form of persecution or external pressure. That is perfectly true. It is, however, completely wrong to say they came here to establish "freedom of religion", there is no indication in any of the major charters and compacts from this era of this concept gaining acceptance until after the Revolutionary War. (

Post #138

)

The initial point was that there would have been no United States without the desire of certain groups to worship as they chose (. . .and to impose their own repressiveness onto their own societies), this is clearly wrong. While fleeing from religious persecution was certainly a driving force for some groups of colonists it was not the only or even the primary driving force behind immigration to the East Coast from the Old World. Even looking just at the Plymouth colony the initial voyage carried more non-pilgrim colonists than Pilgrims, who had no religious association with the sect at all but instead had come to the New World to seek adventure or fortune or simply the opportunity to build a better life or to escape an old one. Given the kind of population pressures Europe was facing at the time emigration to the America's was inevitable, no matter what the religious climate was.

So you know history..so what? Wiki and $2.99 will get you the Wings Day special...to paraphrase a popular commercial. Do you treat your students like they're stupid and backward too?

Not trying to treat you like you're stupid Morning Glory, or backward. I held the same views you did once on this issue and it had everything to do with simply not having a good overview of the primary sources and nothing at all to do with intelligence. There are a lot of myths we are taught about early American history and it can be difficult to come to grips with the often tragic reality of our nation's past.

Lurker

Quoting yourself?

You can't treat ME like I'm stupid or backward, Lurker; I won't allow it. I asked if you treated your students that way.

[MorningGlory]

You can't treat ME like I'm stupid or backward, Lurker; I won't allow it. I asked if you treated your students that way.

Is it really necessary to always go there? I'm going to keep my students out of this, thanks.

Lurker

'Always go there'? I've never asked you this before and I don't recall anyone else doing so either. Thundering silence. Lurker.