Dietry laws and Christian freedom

[Guest yod]

If you are right i ask God now to show me and convince me beyond the doubt i have at this point.

I'm not sure what you are doubting? No one is saying you are under any obligation to be kosher so I hope that you aren't hearing that. You have perfect liberty and I would oppose anyone who says otherwise. But I maintain that unclean animals didn't become clean at the resurrection. Jews wouldn't have fellowship with gentiles who ate these things and were calling all gentiles "unclean" because of it. This is why the Lord had to tell Peter not to call "unclean" what He has made "clean" by the cleansing of the Holy Spirit.

No one is made unclean through foods since, as Yeshua says, that food ends up coming out anyway. However that is a different issue than whether a pig, or vulture, or a mouse were created by God as food for humans.

One thing that stumbles me is that you are virtually saying no one can read the bible at face value and must have historical grounding to know the truth ? but these historical evidences are mostly subjective are they not ?

Gosh, that sounds backwards to me? I think we're saying you should read the bible at face value (and in the proper cultural context it is given) not adding the theological commentaries of men that twist it into saying something it doesn't actually say.

In other words, if there appears to be any contradiction between different verses then the contradiction is in our understanding of what is being said and not in the scriptures.

So perhaps the difference we are experiencing is that we're saying the Tenach (aka Old Testament) is in perfect harmony with what the Newer Testament says...and that is a radical idea from what theological commentaries have taught you when they say that the Tenach, the foundation of the Newer Testament, is no longer relevant.

How can this be when it was the very scriptures Paul, Peter, Jacob, and Yeshua taught from? Remember, every time the Apostles/Disciples speak about the "Word of God" that there was no such thing as the New Testament scriptures. I believe they would be drastically shocked to hear what is being said in theological commentaries these days.

[JCISGD]

If you are right i ask God now to show me and convince me beyond the doubt i have at this point.

I'm not sure what you are doubting? No one is saying you are under any obligation to be kosher so I hope that you aren't hearing that. You have perfect liberty and I would oppose anyone who says otherwise. But I maintain that unclean animals didn't become clean at the resurrection. Jews wouldn't have fellowship with gentiles who ate these things and were calling all gentiles "unclean" because of it. This is why the Lord had to tell Peter not to call "unclean" what He has made "clean" by the cleansing of the Holy Spirit.

No one is made unclean through foods since, as Yeshua says, that food ends up coming out anyway. However that is a different issue than whether a pig, or vulture, or a mouse were created by God as food for humans.

One thing that stumbles me is that you are virtually saying no one can read the bible at face value and must have historical grounding to know the truth ? but these historical evidences are mostly subjective are they not ?

Gosh, that sounds backwards to me? I think we're saying you should read the bible at face value (and in the proper cultural context it is given) not adding the theological commentaries of men that twist it into saying something it doesn't actually say.

In other words, if there appears to be any contradiction between different verses then the contradiction is in our understanding of what is being said and not in the scriptures.

So perhaps the difference we are experiencing is that we're saying the Tenach (aka Old Testament) is in perfect harmony with what the Newer Testament says...and that is a radical idea from what theological commentaries have taught you when they say that the Tenach, the foundation of the Newer Testament, is no longer relevant.

How can this be when it was the very scriptures Paul, Peter, Jacob, and Yeshua taught from? Remember, every time the Apostles/Disciples speak about the "Word of God" that there was no such thing as the New Testament scriptures. I believe they would be drastically shocked to hear what is being said in theological commentaries these days.

I hear that you say "no one is obligated to eat kosher", but if God has not made these other foods clean then we are morally obligated to avoid them as a Christian is not free to ruin or erode their health if avoidable.

I have not read commentaries ever, and 1 Tim 4:3-5 tells me God has now sanctified all creatures. If there was no change in this then there would be no reason for Paul to couch his words as such.

I have brought no extra biblical arguement to the table apart from my speculation that Peter must have eaten with the gentiles and food would be the only activity that would have caused him to jump away when the Jews showed up.

Shiloh on the other hand has stated many things that cannot be known from scripture alone. Im not saying he is wrong but i asked how can anyone know truth if it relies on gaining a cultural understanding of Jewish life.

How does a non Jew find truth from the bible alone, is not the bible the living word of God?

[Botz]

Yod, Shiloh and Botz, i do appreciate your gracious and even handed treatment of this topic and i know that if you are right, then swimming against the flow requires much paitence and sacrifice just to win one sometimes.

That's OK bro ...just check it out for yourself...there is great division within the Body of Messiah over this and accompanying issues, which is why each person needs to seriously consider the implications of what the Bible has revealed

I hear your words and will be praying about your counsel. I think what you say is plausible but i remain unconvinced for now.

Hear what is being said, but check it against the Scriptures naturally...let the Holy Spirit lead you and the Scriptures convince you of the Truth...not our idea or any man's idea of the Truth, but G-d's.

If you are right i ask God now to show me and convince me beyond the doubt i have at this point.

Line upon line, precept upon precept...let Him lead you through the Word...be like those guys on the road to Emmaus, when the L-rd joined up with them and expounded Scripture to them. Nothing wrong with doubts Arthur...they help us eventually, because if we are sincere we are forced to really look into things in an effort to remove them.

One thing that stumbles me is that you are virtually saying no one can read the bible at face value and must have historical grounding to know the truth ? but these historical evidences are mostly subjective are they not ?

Not at all...of course the Bible can be read at face value, but to understand many aspects of it, culturally and historically, we need to get ourselves grounded in them....(I think sometimes people expect G-d to just supernaturally show them everything He ever intended to mean in Scripture...well I am sure G-d shows all of us many truths, but there are also other things in place that can prove helpful to many of us at times).... Knowing Hebrew and Greek is helpful....commentaries can be helpful....other books can be useful, and lexicons and dictionaries...and Pastors and Teachers etc etc ...

Amongst all of these there can be inconclusive bits of evidence, fragmentary knowledge, and incomplete teachings...but each of us according to our unique character should be trying our best to get a handle on what the Scriptures show, not just to better fill our heads with knowledge, but so that we can clearly see what G-d says, mix it with faith and be obedient from the heart....and in doing these things and devoting time to the study of the Scriptures, we develop a better rounded, more complete picture, of the L-rd, who we are in Him, and the history of G-d's interaction with mankind, particular using the Jewish people as the vehicle for the Salvation of the World.

[Botz]

How does a non Jew find truth from the bible alone, is not the bible the living word of God?

I think a non-Jew should be able to see that the Living Word of G-d has a very strong inescapable Jewish flavour.

[JCISGD]

How does a non Jew find truth from the bible alone, is not the bible the living word of God?

I think a non-Jew should be able to see that the Living Word of G-d has a very strong inescapable Jewish flavour.

Yes but Paul became a Christian just as we all must to be saved. "Truly truly I say to you that unless you become born again you will not see the kingdom of heaven". The Jews had not had a prophet for 400 yrs B.C, they were all lost and in darkness and being a Jew did not save them.

I dont say "Im a Gentile Christian" im just a Christian-Christ follower.

What commentaries do i need when reading 1 Tim 4:3-5 ? and how would i know which one to believe as they all say different things.

Yes there are rules for "rightly dividing the word of truth", but knowing the historical customs not already made known through the OT, is not nescesary if we keep in context and know the literal from the figurative.

The bible only needs to be read on our knees laid out before the Holy Spirit, who has been promised to lead us into all truth.

True there are flaky people who take isolated verses and make all manner of error out of them, but they are either insincere or fools or immature and such will always be with us.

[Guest yod]

Shiloh on the other hand has stated many things that cannot be known from scripture alone. Im not saying he is wrong but i asked how can anyone know truth if it relies on gaining a cultural understanding of Jewish life.

How does a non Jew find truth from the bible alone, is not the bible the living word of God?

Actually there is as much, if not more, that came after the scriptures were written through european culture than before which influences the way you see it today. Had things not been changed in the first place, you would understand these things which were often assumed knowledge by the writers of the entire body of holy writ.

I'm not jewish but I've been immersed in the jewish community for about 20 years now. It was the son of holocaust survivors who taught me the scriptures. There are so many gaps in what you get from a gentile trying to teach you about Israel that simply can't be explained. Theirs is an ancient culture and the writers of the Newer Covenant assumed that the readers of their words would know certain aspects and therefore saw no need to explain many of the finer details. Shiloh can tell you those things because he is jewish and this is his heritage. The bible is their book...why wouldn't you assume that jews know it better than greeks? (Zech 8:20-23 speaks about that)

For example, when the scriptures say that Yeshua said a "blessing" at the end of the Last Supper (Pesach), I can tell you exactly what He said and in the original language because it is an ancient blessing that goes all the way back to the days of Ezra. Gentiles would just never know it, though.

Once you've been through a cycle of the feasts, you will start seeing that there is another way of looking at the scriptures which simply aren't taught in a church because gentiles don't know the finer details of what it means to be jewish. I think it is safe to assume that this was part of the reason why there was friction between jews and gentiles in the early days. Gentiles who were wise in the ways of greek philosophy were applying reason to things that simply required faith instead of wisdom.

Paul says "the jew requires a sign (doing) and the greeks require wisdom (thinking)". That hasn't changed. Christianity is a "belief" (thinking) religioun but the faith was founded by jew and is about what you do. There is a not as much need for jews to understand God to obey Him but this isn't so in the greco-church world.

Jews had thousands of years to argue about Creation but that never happened because it simply isn't necessary to understand "how" God did everything. Not so with greco-western civilization. Just look at the thread on Creation that start here for evidence of that fact.

So it's not just about explaining a different thought process, its a totally different world. It is world of difference in how thoughts are processed between hebraic and greek philosophy. In fact, the first "fight" in the early faith community was between hellenistic jews (Acts) and hebraic jews.

The biggest problem Shiloh or Botz or I have in explaining these things is that christians only understand the one perspective (greek) and don't realize that there is another world out there running on a different calendar that goes back 6,000 years.

It can be learned but it takes effort and time. It takes a bit of humility to admit that "we" (christians) might not be the final authority on what the Bible is saying since the jews had it for millennia before us.

Without a firm foundation of the Tenach, the Newer Covenant is easily adapted into hellenistic philosophy which changes things more drastically than you might realize. That takes a lot of undoing.

But the history is that gentiles resent having to learn from the jews and the offenses spiral out of control. This is exactly why the date for celebrating the Resurrection was changed from Passover to Easter, btw.

[Botz]

First off....everything that Yod has said.

I too am a Gentile Believer in the Jewish Messiah, and I continue to shed the negative and clique-like Greek influence and Greek teaching that has impacted the Body of Messiah for about 1800 years. I do not say that everything that is not Jewish is therefore wrong, and as Gentile Believers I recognize a somewhat different flavour in the way we develop as part of the Body of Messiah...but to try and endorse the schismatic teachings of the West that deliberately separated themselves from Biblical Jewish history and subsequently the teachings of the L-rd and His Apostles beggars belief.

The way I look at it is a bit like Martin Luther who high-lighted what was already evident in Scripture, namely 'justification by faith'....Likewise in these days there is a gradual recognition that the Gentile Believers have drifted so far from their Jewish roots that the way they understand and present the Gospel is often at odds with the Bible and continues to usurp the place of the Jewish people...to such an extent that some people are shocked to find out that Jesus is a Jew. (I know what I'm talking about ...I have met several)...and has led in some quarters to a smug triumphant Replacement Theology.

The bible only needs to be read on our knees laid out before the Holy Spirit, who has been promised to lead us into all truth.

I think that you can also reasonably assume that G-d does not want us to be deliberately ignorant of His ways, and has provided various means for us to better understand His Word...believe it or not the Holy Spirit is not restricted to only guiding us through the Scriptures....He speaks to our hearts continuously if we listen, and this includes people or writings we might listen to and be taught and helped by....we are encouraged to 'walk in the Spirit'....and to be continuously 'filled with the Spirit'.

[Guest shiloh357]

I hear that you say "no one is obligated to eat kosher", but if God has not made these other foods clean then we are morally obligated to avoid them as a Christian is not free to ruin or erode their health if avoidable.

Health issues miss the point. Kosher refers to a process by which clean animals are made ready for human consumption. It is ritual process and does not render any meat or food more healthy. Deep fried latkes are just as fattening as nonkosher hashbrowns.

I have not read commentaries ever, and 1 Tim 4:3-5 tells me God has now sanctified all creatures. If there was no change in this then there would be no reason for Paul to couch his words as such.

The problem again is that you are not really reading the passage. Paul is talking about those who do two primary things. They forbid marriage AND force others to abstain from food. Not certain kinds of food, but from food, period. Neither of those describe any thing in Jewish law. This is not talking about fasting or Jewish dietary laws. You cannot jump on every reference to food as applying to the biblical dietary laws. Pagans were far more restrictive in many cases about what could or could not be eaten.

I have brought no extra biblical arguement to the table apart from my speculation that Peter must have eaten with the gentiles and food would be the only activity that would have caused him to jump away when the Jews showed up.

Nnot really. From the Scriptures, what we see is that Peter was eating with the Gentiles until His fellow Jewish leaders showed up. The text does not say that Peter was eating anything unclean, but that he wanted to avoid the appearance of uncleanness. There were those who still saw the Gentiles as unclean and Peter was attempting (and wrongly so) to keep up appearances. It is clear that there were those who did not accept the conclusion of Peter's vision and so, most likely in attempt to avoid controversy, Peter avoided His Gentile bretheren when the Jewish leadership was in town.

Shiloh on the other hand has stated many things that cannot be known from scripture alone. Im not saying he is wrong but i asked how can anyone know truth if it relies on gaining a cultural understanding of Jewish life.

Because God did not circumvent the culture. Rather, God used that 1st Century hebraic culture as a vehicle to communicate His truth. The Bible is a book to be studied. There are cultural references that flavor the text and add insights and in some cases explain difficult passsages. Sometimes, those cultural references are like keys that unlock something that makes the text take on a whole new dimension.

How does a non Jew find truth from the bible alone, is not the bible the living word of God?

The Bible is the only source of truth, but the Bible is also a piece of literature that obeys the rules of literature as well. God made it that way so that we could study it and search it out. Learning the peripheral history and culture is a tool the Holy Spirit uses to illuminate the Word to us.

Yes there are rules for "rightly dividing the word of truth", but knowing the historical customs not already made known through the OT, is not nescesary if we keep in context and know the literal from the figurative.

The problem is that cultrual references ARE made and ususally fly under the radar. Christians today are trying to read modern 21st century Christianity into the Bible. They are taking their own notions and traditions and ideas and superimposing them on the Biblical text. For that reason, they often miss the cultrual references and, as in this case, when we point to cultural references being made, you are not willing to accept that a cultural reference is being made in the text of Scripture.

The Bible is an ancient eastern book that contains a mindset and culture that God used as a vehicle for communicating His word. It is not spiritual or wise to ignore that reality. The good student of Scripture familiarizes himself with culture and mindset of the author in order to view the text through the author's eyes. The Holy Spirit illuminates both our hearts AND our minds in His Word. Thoughtful study includes understanding the culture that God used to birth His Word.

The bible only needs to be read on our knees laid out before the Holy Spirit, who has been promised to lead us into all truth

That is true in many cases, but that does not negate thoughtful study.

[JCISGD]

Your points taken and are plausible to my mind, even though i remain unconvinced thus far.

I dont know if we can add anything more as proofs unless you are willing to accept that this was not stressed by the men that God has used to bring huge revivals and the salvation of countless number. Im not talking about flaky emotionalism of todays false prophets, these giants in the faith lived holy lives with no scandel or deviation from the faith till the end.

If you wont acknowledge these as a work of God i cannot see any way forward and can only be convinced that you are in error. We are told we will know Jesus` disciples by their fruits, and the fruits of men such as Whitfeild, Hudson, Finney, the Wesleys and many more are undisputable in both the solid conversion of sinners and the holiness of their living.

Hudson Taylor who gave his life to the salvation of the Chinese, who are now raising up thousands to walk the silk road to Jerusalem while preaching fearlessly to the Muslems, taught nothing that i am aware of concerning the keeping of Jewish feasts or culture. Would you have a impoverished chinese worker begin learning Jewish custom?

I would suggest that if these things get in the way of the salvation of souls, then it is they that must go and not the other way around.

Unless you can show me that God is using these things to win the lost, i just cannot see their benefit apart from personal interest. But if its only Christians being immersed in Jewish culture then i even think it a possible foul? in the cause of Christ who came to seek and save the lost, of whom i once was.

[Botz]

Hudson Taylor who gave his life to the salvation of the Chinese, who are now raising up thousands to walk the silk road to Jerusalem while preaching fearlessly to the Muslems, taught nothing that i am aware of concerning the keeping of Jewish feasts or culture. Would you have a impoverished chinese worker begin learning Jewish custom?

I think you are misunderstanding the thrust and emphasis of what has been said.

I am sure those Chinese that were converted through the blessed ministry of Hudson Taylor did not continue in their pagan rituals and acknowledgement of other gods...and sought to do what they saw in the Scriptures, and what they were taught...which all stems from the Gospel of Yeshua, and the teachings of Jews who followed Him. There are many great men of G-d who did not acknowledge their Jewish roots, and went on to do such a lot for the Gospel....but that is no excuse to bury ones head in the sand in these times, especially when Israel has once more become a nation, and for many of us the significance of our roots is an inescapable emphasis of the Holy Spirit, and who is to say that maybe some of those great missionaries and evangelists would have helped lay a better foundation if they had understood things better regarding the Jews....and maybe even the Shoah could have been prevented.

The silk road to Jerusalem movement was established about fifty years ago...I have had the privilege of seeing brother Yun and hearing him preach....and I believe amongst other things his heart is to see Jews know their Messiah, and the Gentiles to know the debt they owe the Jews, especially those who reached out faithfully to bring salvation to the nations.