Jewish Holidays

[Guest yod]

welcome to the boards....

the yehudim is taking over.

[stevehut]

All the Messianic Jews I've ever talked to get quite upset when you say, sabbath keeping or festivals are works.

Likewise with Catholics who burden themselves with thousands of rules and dozens of sacraments and rituals. They will never recognize it as such.

[stevehut]

the yehudim is taking over. 

I believe it should be the yehudim are taking over.

I'm surprised at you, Yod...

[Botz]

Well noticed Steve.

[toothless]

Zionprophet:

Thats a pretty high moniker, so for the benefit of this conversation, I'll assume

you are a prophet. Here's the question, what should I practice in the way of

Gods (notice I did'nt say Hebrew Jewish Israelite) Holy days,(notice I did'nt say

festivals feasts ect..) what would you have me do.

I am a gentile convert to Christianity.(I assume there is no significant ammout

of Hebrew blood in my veins)Please differentiate between a command that

which if undone would be sin, and a suggestion, that which would add knoweledge.

I think I just stepped on the slippery slope but it would'nt be the first time.

Toothless, and actually I have ALL my teeth my name is really Bill.

[Guest zionprophet]

Here's the question, what should I practice in the way of

Gods (notice I did'nt say Hebrew Jewish Israelite) Holy days,(notice I did'nt say

festivals feasts ect..) what would you have me do.

A two part question as far as I see it toothless, but I shall try and enlighten you as best I am able to, if indeed you are seeking enlightenment, and I am not going to prejudge you either way.

In the first instance, I am only aware of one 'Holy Day' of the most High. There may well be other's, but I would suggest that these are 'man-made.'

The ONLY 'Holy Day' I am aware of is Shabbat. ( I say 'day' as opposed to festival periods, like feasts, pesach etc)

By 'Shabbat', I mean the 'original' Shabbat.

Some might call this the 'jewish' shabbat, but that, I believe, is a wholly incorrect way of describing it.

It is in fact the Most High, YHWH, who 'consecrated' it, since only He can in fact make anything Holy.

Let's look at the scriptures for it:

Ex 20: 10

Edited August 15, 2004 by zionprophet

[toothless]

Zionprophet:

Thanks for the quick responce, first I have to tell you I'm predjuced, not in the

negative way but the positive. I'm pro Israel and I believe that their mission

is not finished. I do not think as an adopted son I am entitled to, or obligated

to, the same ways as a blood line covenant Hebrew.

That being said I understand some of the early church history and the strong

anti Semitic trends that developed especially after the distruction of the temple

in 70a.d. and the following Christianization of Rome (is that a word?) a few

centuries later.

I do wonder what is required of me as a gentile convert to

Christianity, I think about the meaning of scripture, theologically,historically

and in practical application.

I gather from your post you would only advocate sabbath keeping?

or do you also propose festival periods.(when I say you of course I mean

your understanding of scripture and tradition)

As a former Seventh Day Adventist I wonder why you quoted Ex.20

and not Ex.31:13 which gives a specific command to the Israelites as a sign

between God and them. You see I will not (at least I don't think I will)

argue with a Hebrew about sabbath. Thats not my place.

However I might consider a conversation as to the scriptural basis for a

Christian keeping preincarnate festivals and sabbath.

It's doubtful I'll change my doctrinal position, however I may be edified by

hearing your thoughts, and I would hope you would be by mine.

As an overall thought, I understand the need for history, and the powerful

lessons tought in the Torah, but good old Paul has gone and thrown a monkey

wrench in the works, it's not as simple as it seems, the out pouring of the

Holy Spirit the distruction of the Temple all point to a new dispensation.

I know what I've written and it dosn't seem like much but at least you know

where I'm coming from if you would like to proceed. I might suggest Paul

his views seem pivotal in the issue. Bill

[Guest zionprophet]

My pleasure Toothless.

{ In the first instance and for clarification, 'prejudice', in it's proper usage, is the effect of the negative or opposing viewpoint of pre-dertermined statements, doctrines or position.

The word 'christianization' is an inflected or extended form of the transitive verb 'christianize'. }

Insofar as those things which are required of a gentile convert, or one of the 'un-natural' branches which are grafted in to the natural vine (Romans 11) are concerned, I would suggest that the best starting point is in fact Acts 15.

This is when the matter was first addressed by the Jerusalem Church. It was occassioned after 'certain men' (Acts 15:1), un-named preachers, were presumably causing strife by suggesting that new converts, which would, in it's proper context, be gentile converts, that they could not be saved unless they were circumcised after the manner of Moses. << note well- further comment later.

Paul and Barnabas became caught up 'in no small dissension' with them.

I think we can derive from this that a brawl just short of fisti-cuffs ensued!

The consensus was to seek further counsel and clarification from the apostles at Jerusalem. After much discourse, 4 things were required from gentile converts:

(Acts 15:20)

1) Abstain from pollutions of idols

2) Abstain from their 'pagan' fornications

3) Abstain from eating meat from strangled animals

4) Abstain from blood ( or meats where it had not been drained)

This was the four PRIMARY requirements for gentile converts.

Now why do I say 'primary' you might well ask ?

Because it's the following verse after these requirements which actually holds the full key to what James was more fully stating.

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. [KJV]

21 - For from ancient generations Moses has had his preachers in every town, for he is read [aloud] every Sabbath in the synagogues. [Amplified Bible]

21 - For the laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations." [NLB]

I have listed a few versions of this statement for you to get a flavor for it.

Now, first off, some would argue that verse 21 is a mere expansion for clarification on verse 20. I would disagree, for the simple reason that verse 20 contains a mere 4 laws of the 613 of those written in the books of Moses, or the Torah, as given to him by the Most High.

Verse 20, is the saplings milk.

And when they're ready to eat some meat, then they can go along to the synagogue every sabbath day, and get a full flavor for the Law. To me, that is what James is more accurately saying.

In verse 28, we have Paul, Barnabas, Judas and Silas deliver letters which confirm that it pleased the Holy Ghost and the disciples to lay no greater burden upon the gentile converts than these 4 'necessary' things.

In verse 31, these gentile converts 'rejoice' at these words.

In Paul's letter of the work of the Law (Romans), I see more important points at the beginning of the letter. Some people prefer to take a few verses here and there from this letter, and use it for their own advantage. To wit :-

Acts 2:

11-For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Throughout Paul's letters, you will see him preaching against those that make boasts concerning the Law. These are the same people of whom the Most High declared 'This people worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me'.

In the NT testament Ha-Moshiach points the finger straight at them and declares

'woe unto you law-givers, for you have hidden the keys to the house of knowledge, you would not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you did hinder'.

How were they doing this ?

For by your traditions of men, you have made the word of no effect, instead, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.

Let's just freeze the frame a little here.

What exactly is going on ?

The priests were not teaching the people properly, indeed, they themselves were not even living righteously.

By the time Ha-Moshiach was walking the earth, Jerusalem, Israel, and the hebrew people had become totally corrupted with all manner of lies, falsehoods and more.

Sabbath observance was a joke, since the chief priests themselves were the main propogators of those who profaned the sabbath.

What were they doing you might ask ?

What did Ha-Moshiach do?

He kicked over the tables in the temples, the tables of the 'money lenders', and the 'sellers' of animals, and told them 'you have turned my father's house into a den of thieves' !

Strong words indeed, but what indeed did He mean by this ?

In first century Israel, which was now a Roman jurisdiction, along with most of the world, the 'beast' of the Roman Republic was in full control.

The Romans had instituted the minting of coins on a world wide scale which had never been known before. This is the proper meaning of the latter part of Revelations 13. That no man was able to buy or sell, unless he had his Roman coins. This was the primary means of exchange. Sure, some bartering went on here and there, but by and large, Roman coinage was the primary means of exchange.

To the jews, this presented many problems. They were not permitted to pay their temple tithes with Roman coins. To over come this little difficulty, the elders and chief priests setup 'exchange' tables in the foyer of the temple.

Here, the jews could exchange their 'idolatrous' Roman coinage for eequivalent weights of precious metals, and for this privilege, they were charged a levy of around 12 and a half percent.

Oh, they weren't told not to use the coins at all, indeed no, just that they couldn;t pay their temple tithes with it. And in the process of exchange, they were being screwed for more money. It was a huge commercial enterprise, and their elders and law-givers were the very people who were doing it.

You see Toothless, you have to understand many, many things, before you can fully appreciate what Paul, and indeed Ha-Moshiach Himself, were actually speaking against in terms of the 'Law' and the recognised 'Law-givers' of that time period.

Everywhere Paul went, he was getting heckled by those who knew him as the staunch pharisee who previously went about with 'warrants' from the crooks he was now criticising. It was a two way exchange.

Paul 'worked' for these people. He was a passionate, Torah loving, Torah living 'Hebrew of the Hebrews' and a pharisee to boot ! He was as'jewish' as 'jewish' could be, and he was passionate in his beliefs and his observances.

When Paul's eyes were opened fully, Paul realised just what a sucker he had been for his pharisaic elders. I've no proof, but by the same token I have no doubt, that when Paul went about in his earlier days with warrants to apprehend 'christians', that he did it for free, as a sincere and devout religious man, who sincerely believed with all his heart that these people (the early believers in ha Moshiach) were teaching falsehoods.

When he saw the Light, you can bet that Paul saw the light, and a whole lot more besides! And thoughout his letters, you can get plenty of whiffs of his teachings against the 'law-givers' that Ha-Moshiach himself condemned.

To them, Paul was a 'turn-coat', and they despised him. To Paul, they were thieves and robbers now, who preyed on the weak, gullible, and unlearned.

I know I've kinda strayed off the beaten track a bit, but I'm merely trying to present to you a greater 'behind the scenes' picture of what is actually going on in Paul's letters.

Do you think Paul went about gentile countries where no jews resided ?

No siree ! Paul went all around the diaspora where his jewish brethren were !

The 'missionary' to the gentiles was a protective cover keeping him alive, because if they could get away with it, his 'jewish' pharisaic brethren would have had him pinned up on a cross also, and a lot sooner besides ! He was as much a thorn in their flesh as Ha-Moshiach himself !

But getting back onto tracks and the real topic at hand.

The real topic is the 'Law'.

And the real question is how much a gentile convert has to uphold.

There are four things identified in Acts 15.

After that, as James stated, Moses is taught every shabbat in synagogue.

In other words, we have the laws (Torah) in more convenient formats nowadays.

The difference is, that he gives us His spirit in the new covenant, and writes His Laws in our heart.

If a man 'seeks after God with a pure heart', 'He shall cause him to find Him'.

On the other hand, as Paul also states, some men chose for themselves teachers which say things which are soothing to their ears, and not too demanding.

The essential component in it all, IS LOVE.

IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU'LL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

It REALLY is as simple as that.

I once had a little plaque that sat above my bed.

Upon it was this inscription:-

"I asked Yeshua how much do you love me, "this much" He answered, then He stretched out His arms and died"

He doesn't ask for us to love Him in this manner, unto death. Merely that if we DO REALLY love Him, all He requires is just that we keep His commandments.

Not too much by comparison is it ?

AND YESHUA ASKED ME, HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE ME,

"This much Lord", I answered,

"Then I stretched forth my hands, picked up His Torah, and began to read therein, and to observe His commandments, to the best of my ability,"

And if at times I should fail or falter, He lovingly forgives.

MY OH MY, SOME PEOPLE REALLY DON'T KNOW THIS SAVIOUR AT ALL !

Toothless,

I am sorry if this post has dragged on overly much, but I could speak about my Lord till the cows come home. And there are lots of cows, He owns them all on a thousand hills and more !

Shalom my friend.

You keep seeking,

and ASK HIM what He requires of you.

Dang, never did get to the Moses part which I higlighted at the beginning!

Other than to say basically, Abraham was circumcised before him, and he and all his household, even his servants!

Derive from this what you will.

Remember, it's all about LOVE.

LOVE \o/ LOVE \o/ LOVE

LOVE \o/ LOVE \o/ LOVE

ALL WE NEED IS LOVE

ALL WE NEED IS LOVE, LOVE, LOVE IS ALL WE NEED.

(Gee, wonder if the beattles had some enlightenment at some point in time )

Edited August 15, 2004 by zionprophet

[toothless]

Zionprophet:

I wish I had time for a proper responce, and I'll see if I can do so later.

First I'll play let's skirt the issue game by defending my use of the word

prejudice, b. A preconceived preference or idea; bias. However the colloquial

use is now mostly negitive.

I greatly enjoyed your principium accout of Paul, I could find no point in which

we might contend. This does put me in the position of student, which then

lends it's self to the constant questioning, which then leads to complete boredom

and frustration on your part. Suffice to say, some questions may need only a

yes or no answer.

Let me tell you an anecdotal story about myself and a portion of the law.(sabbath)

As a Seventh Day Adventist for 20 years, I thought I was keeping the law.

I was only really worshipping and not working on sabbath, not really observing

it properly.( thats another story) What happened in that portion of my life is a

lackadaisical spritual attitude overcame me. My best reasoning is that I thought

I was O.K. because I was in compliance, yep I was keeping all the ten commandments.

Lets not discuss the truely pathetic nature of that attitude.

So here's what happened to prejudice me against the law, I left the SDA church

and started attending a non-denominational grace oriented chuch. Shortly

thereafter I was praying and a rather curt responce came from a prayer,

It was something like this, did you know your selfish? I thought about it and

realized I was. The list of sins and personality defects kept coming, and the

solutions I might add.

My point being that as I gave up the stricter form of law keeping the more

subtle sins were revealed. A true reformation began by the Spirit.

I will concede my premise of seperating from the law, caused a spiritual

growth, and it could be a false psycological link.Possibly unrelated,

but the turn of events seem to lend support to my conclusion.

As I read your accout of Paul and your understanding of his writings, this question

came to mind. What about circuncision? I say that because it seems to be the

beginning of all things Hebrew, if Paul declares to the Galation converts,

if you do so you are cut off from Christ (pun intended) 5:2 Then where does

that leave us in reguards to the law? I gotta cut this short church to attend

with the Mrs. Sincerely Bill.

[ray]

Why can't we celebrate Jewish Holidays? I mean I never have is there a reason I should start now but I would think I would be free to celebrate if I choose to; its just I never have. Also, regardless that Christmas is a man made holiday it is still a holiday that that celebrates Christ birth. Even if we can not prove when Christ birth accually was and some say we can I think it is a time in which we can honor it. Also, There are many Holidays in which are Christian that Christians do not celebrate. Well this can go in to another whole realm of can of worms but thats enough of my soap box.