Throwing stones.

[Guest agua]

Do people really think Paul was saying he was the worst sinner after his conversion?

Think about it folks, are you saying he went around as Christ` chosen ambassador all the while sinning but yet calling others to repentance, how is this possible or even think able Christians are not called to leave their brains or common sense at the door, and believe the ludicrous.

Every command implies the ability to carry it out. Of course we cannot be holy without Gods help, but who cannot see that God promises His help everywhere throughout the scriptures, and delights to show His ease of ability to do that which seems impossible to us.

Of course if anyone tries to be holy they will fail, as it does not come by trying but by faith.

Paul was aware of his own sin. After his conversion he was forgiven, just like we all are, but he was just as imperfect as we all are. I am sure Paul struggled with things, just as Peter did, just as I do.

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Nathele

Paul only speaks of sin in his life when describing his presalvation state and the process that happens on the way to entire sanctification, everywhere else he discribes himself as holy(sinles) blameless, with a clear conscience before both God and man, being void of offense to anyone having done all that could be expected of him to all. If this is not without sin then what is?

If you are fixed in your belief then so be it, i will not argue it any further with you. My posts are for those who are open to the possibility of being wrong despite it being what they were taught to believe, or what they think the bible teaches. Peace to you.

Was Paul blameless because it was not he that sinned,it was his flesh?Paul's heart condition was without sin,but his nature was not.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

hi agua, my understanding is that Romans is a letter of theology sent to the church in Rome, but passed around to all the churches unlike his other letters that were more instructional than theological. Of course there are some overlaps, but that is why Romans 7 is not Pauls present condition as he is describing the condition and process from start to finish of the carnal into the spiritual man.

The verses above confuse alot christians today as they do not know how to rightly interperet Romans, i certainly didnt and had to be taught. If we read all of Romans as a whole we see Paul has the object in mind of explaining sin, salvation and sanctification. We see also it is progressive and systematic theology, therefore to isolate one chapter and say ah ha, see Paul claims to be beleaguered by sin is not sound exegesis.

Right exegeses would mean we take the plain and multiple claims of Paul that he lived a holy and blameless life over the supposed one claim he was a sinner in Rom 7:17-24 and the unusal claim of being the cheif of sinners which is almost certainly his presalvation condition.

I guess i should start a new topic but ive been there more than a few times. Those that sin find the fact that Paul and others overcame all sin by Gods power just too much to bear, because they think they need to try harder, but it is only God that can sanctify us and we just have to come into line with Gods way of doing it.

G'day JCISGCD,Paul never claimed to be sinless.In romans 7 he describes the battle all christians wage against the flesh.Non-believers do not have this stuggle?The struggle begins with the advent of the Holy Spirit.Paul was blameless because the sins he committed were not what he wanted to do,not because he didn't sin..You see, he was a captive in flesh until Jesus returns and subject to the desires of the flesh as we all are.I believe only when we lose this corruptible body and put on the incorruptible will we be free of sin.

Is there a scripture saying Paul overcame all sin?

[hotair]

The only stones I'm aware of throwing are prayers of blessings and grace

[JCISGD]

G'day JCISGCD,Paul never claimed to be sinless.In romans 7 he describes the battle all christians wage against the flesh.Non-believers do not have this stuggle?The struggle begins with the advent of the Holy Spirit.Paul was blameless because the sins he committed were not what he wanted to do,not because he didn't sin..You see, he was a captive in flesh until Jesus returns and subject to the desires of the flesh as we all are.I believe only when we lose this corruptible body and put on the incorruptible will we be free of sin.

Is there a scripture saying Paul overcame all sin?

Paul did not say the words " I no longer sin" but in atleast 20+ verses he says he was holy, just, blameless, without fault, had a clear conscience before God and mam, and that he had obeyed every moral obligation set before him or words to that effect. Can you tell me one thing that Paul did or said that was sin?

I realise the majority of Christians are still ignorant of this truth, and i have spoken my peace and will leave it there.

[Fez]

hi Believer i will not think anything of it if you do not reply to me as you previously stated your reasons for not doing so in the future and i respect that.

I do not think Paul was not sinning by asking for his burden to be removed just as Christ also prayed for such, they both submitted to the Fathers will and answer to their request. Weaknesses and struggles have no moral character and are also not sin. If i have a broken leg that prevents me achieving my goal or my best efforts fail to get results neither are sin, if we did all that could be asked of us, which Paul did.

Its true that conceit is a sin, but Paul says he was kept from this sin not that he committed it. Paul is not the cause of the thorn in his flesh and therefore is not confessing to sin.

There is nowhere in the bible that Paul confesses to sin. Rom 7 is a theological descriptrion of Gods process in bringing us to total sanctification and v24+25 are the concluding remarks that prove this. We know Paul did not walk in the flesh, but in the power of the Spirit, and "whoever is led by the Spirit does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh".

But - As you quote Romans 7, let me ask this of you.

Rom 3:7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

Do you think that Paul was not talking about himself as well here? If not, then he was being judgmental, and that takes us down a whole other path of discussion?

And can you tell me why you say that Paul is not the cause of the thorn in his flesh? There is nowhere in scripture that tells us what this thorn was, and better men than me have tried to explain it. Every sin is a thorn in our flesh, because I believe we are punished by our sins, not for them?

And as you quote 24 - 25, let me ask this of you,

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

We are sinners, we remain sinners, and Paul was a sinner, he had to be. Only the most Perfect of One's was not a sinner, could not be a sinner.

We sin, but through His grace are forgiven, over and over, because if we are not, what was Death on a Cross for? What was spilling of Holy Blood for?

Blessings

[Believer1997]

hi Believer i will not think anything of it if you do not reply to me as you previously stated your reasons for not doing so in the future and i respect that.

I do not think Paul was not sinning by asking for his burden to be removed just as Christ also prayed for such, they both submitted to the Fathers will and answer to their request. Weaknesses and struggles have no moral character and are also not sin. If i have a broken leg that prevents me achieving my goal or my best efforts fail to get results neither are sin, if we did all that could be asked of us, which Paul did.

Its true that conceit is a sin, but Paul says he was kept from this sin not that he committed it. Paul is not the cause of the thorn in his flesh and therefore is not confessing to sin.

There is nowhere in the bible that Paul confesses to sin. Rom 7 is a theological descriptrion of Gods process in bringing us to total sanctification and v24+25 are the concluding remarks that prove this. We know Paul did not walk in the flesh, but in the power of the Spirit, and "whoever is led by the Spirit does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh".

But - As you quote Romans 7, let me ask this of you.

Rom 3:7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

Do you think that Paul was not talking about himself as well here? If not, then he was being judgmental, and that takes us down a whole other path of discussion?

And can you tell me why you say that Paul is not the cause of the thorn in his flesh? There is nowhere in scripture that tells us what this thorn was, and better men than me have tried to explain it. Every sin is a thorn in our flesh, because I believe we are punished by our sins, not for them?

And as you quote 24 - 25, let me ask this of you,

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

We are sinners, we remain sinners, and Paul was a sinner, he had to be. Only the most Perfect of One's was not a sinner, could not be a sinner.

We sin, but through His grace are forgiven, over and over, because if we are not, what was Death on a Cross for? What was spilling of Holy Blood for?

Blessings

Hey Fez - ok.. I think Paul was so 'human' ... he of course had so many frailties that we all have - but indeed was forgiven. I guess you were responding to me... I try to stay out of some of these threads - they are ... often confused and confusing. LOL