Israel is Israel?

[nebula]

Israel = the nation which God brought into being - the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, MOST of whom are still broken off (the natural branches of the Olive tree) - but the day is coming when ALL the natural branches will turn from their unbelief in Jesus.

"The church" = THE TEMPLE OF ISRAEL, which is the temple of God and which has replaced the temple which was brought in through the bringing in of the Old Covenant, the covenant of Law; and "the church" is made of BELIEVING Jewish and Gentiles "stones".

"The church" is not Israel, and Israel did not break God's everlasting covenant which ETERNALLY ELECTED the nation physically descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - THEY COULD NOT break it, because it was NEVER dependent on their obedience and faithfulness like the covenant of Law which followed it.

The NEW covenant was made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer,31: 31-33 and replaces the covenant of law - NOT the covenant which eternally elected Israel.

So how did Abraham become the father of MANY NATIONS?

By becoming the father of all the GENTILES who believe, who are GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL AMONG ISRAEL'S BELIEVING REMNANT.

But the covenants and the promises -including the New Covenant in Christ's blood, were NOT AND NEVER made with "many nations", they were made WITH ISRAEL, THE PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS:

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (Rom 9:1-5)

The BELIEVING Gentiles from among the "many nations" only get to share in "the root and fatness of the Olive tree" by being grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of the ETHNIC Israelites.

I like how you explained this lekh.

And I learned something:

""The church" = THE TEMPLE OF ISRAEL, which is the temple of God and which has replaced the temple which was brought in through the bringing in of the Old Covenant, the covenant of Law; and "the church" is made of BELIEVING Jewish and Gentiles "stones"."

That is so cool!!

[nebula]

Repentance always precedes forgiveness. The Church just wants the Jews to drop the issue, and move on. The Church wants the Jews to forgive without the Church having to own its 1,700-year-long history of persecution and bloodshed. The Church does not want to have to go back and evaluate the teachings of its most prominent leaders throughout history and see if their teachings and beliefs actually demonsrate an authentic profession of faith.

This is one of my pet peeves -

Everyone loves throwing out the verses about forgieness to the offended, wounded person.

But hardly anybody mentions the verses about the offendee making the effort to humble himself and reconcile with his offened brother.

Matt. 5

23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

When was the last time anyone heard a sermon based on this passage of Scriptrue?

[Guest yod]

There are many individuals who do not believe in God or Jesus Christ and there have been many in the past who are now dead. Does that mean that they have lost out on salvation? Absolutely not! God is a God of justice and true judgment and has not and will not deprive anyone from having the opportunity of being in His Kingdom. There are young children, older adults, people who have been killed in many accidents and disasters who have not ever had the remote chance of even hearing about Jesus Christ, much less have a chance to be able to confess that He is the Christ.

If one even remotely says that those individuals will not have a Chance to be in Gods Kingdom do not know their Bible.

this is really strange stuff, bro.

So it is appointed unto man once to die...then he gets a chance to change his mind?

[Matthitjah]

Blessings, Shiloh 357

There is also no way we can in full honesty and truthfulness claim that NO true Christians were involved in these things.

The same can be said that there is no way you can in full honesty and truthfulness claim that a true Christian was involved, .. It really serves no purpose and is meaningless to become suspicious and go looking for a problem when there is none.

The Jewish community at large harbors a lot of understandable animosity and suspicion toward the church

Let me tell you about a Jewish friend of mine. He loves the God of the Old Testament and believes Jesus was a great prophet for Jews and Gentiles alike, and that we need to prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah through repenting. He believes that if Jesus comes again, that would indeed prove He is the Messiah. His attitude is sorta like a wait and see one because the Messiah doesn

[lekh l'kha]

Israel = the nation which God brought into being - the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, MOST of whom are still broken off (the natural branches of the Olive tree) - but the day is coming when ALL the natural branches will turn from their unbelief in Jesus.

"The church" = THE TEMPLE OF ISRAEL, which is the temple of God and which has replaced the temple which was brought in through the bringing in of the Old Covenant, the covenant of Law; and "the church" is made of BELIEVING Jewish and Gentiles "stones".

"The church" is not Israel, and Israel did not break God's everlasting covenant which ETERNALLY ELECTED the nation physically descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - THEY COULD NOT break it, because it was NEVER dependent on their obedience and faithfulness like the covenant of Law which followed it.

The NEW covenant was made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer,31: 31-33 and replaces the covenant of law - NOT the covenant which eternally elected Israel.

So how did Abraham become the father of MANY NATIONS?

By becoming the father of all the GENTILES who believe, who are GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL AMONG ISRAEL'S BELIEVING REMNANT.

But the covenants and the promises -including the New Covenant in Christ's blood, were NOT AND NEVER made with "many nations", they were made WITH ISRAEL, THE PHYSICAL DESCENDANTS:

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (Rom 9:1-5)

The BELIEVING Gentiles from among the "many nations" only get to share in "the root and fatness of the Olive tree" by being grafted into Israel among the believing remnant of the ETHNIC Israelites.

I like how you explained this lekh.

And I learned something:

""The church" = THE TEMPLE OF ISRAEL, which is the temple of God and which has replaced the temple which was brought in through the bringing in of the Old Covenant, the covenant of Law; and "the church" is made of BELIEVING Jewish and Gentiles "stones"."

That is so cool!!

Paul explains it so clearly in Ephesians 2: 17-22, but the passage has been "adjusted" to force-fit it with "the church replaced Israel" idea:

"... And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them (the Jews) that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:17-22)

And Peter:

"you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1Pe 2:5)

A spiritual "house" = a temple, and it's made up of the believing physical seed of Israel + all believing Gentiles who have been grafted in among them, to share in the root and fatness of the Olive tree - together, we are the "stones" of the temple. But we're in physical bodies in the world, not a "spiritual" Israel floating around up there pretending we're in the world. The whole "spiritual Israel" idea comes from the gnostic philosophy of Dualism, which maintains that there will always be separation of "the spiritual" and the physical, because (according to Dualism) the physical is corrupt and will never be sanctified, and cannot be sanctified.

It's the gnostic Dualistic Greek/Roman mindset that greatly influenced the development of Replacement Theology such as is found in Origen's book "City of God".

For some reason, those who believe this theology just don't want to think it through

Lekh

*** Edited **** Sorry, that was Augustine's "City of God", not Origen.

[Guest shiloh357]

The same can be said that there is no way you can in full honesty and truthfulness claim that a true Christian was involved, .. It really serves no purpose and is meaningless to become suspicious and go looking for a problem when there is none.

It is not a matter of being suspicious. It goes back to being intellectually honest.

Let me tell you about a Jewish friend of mine. He loves the God of the Old Testament and believes Jesus was a great prophet for Jews and Gentiles alike, and that we need to prepare the way for the coming of the Messiah through repenting. He believes that if Jesus comes again, that would indeed prove He is the Messiah. His attitude is sorta like a wait and see one because the Messiah doesn

[nebula]

Paul explains it so clearly in Ephesians 2: 17-22, but the passage has been "adjusted" to force-fit it with "the church replaced Israel" idea:

"... And came and preached peace to you (Gentiles) which were afar off, and to them (the Jews) that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:17-22)

And Peter:

"you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1Pe 2:5) . . .

Now that you point it out, I see that.

But for some reason - whoosh! It just always flew right past me.

[lekh l'kha]

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet [God's true church], and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered... And she brought forth a male child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. And this woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days." (Revelation 12: 1-6)

Rev 12:1-6

The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness... ~ Matthew Henry

There's just one problem - just one verse in the same passage shows the above interpretation of the identity of "the woman" who was clothed with the sun, to be a false interpretation:

"And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

(Rev 12:17)

"The church" is "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", so who is "the woman"?

I guess you'll explain that question away too, but here's the Biblical interpretation:

The woman is Israel, the chosen nation, brought into being by the birth of Isaac and elected by God forever:

"I tell the truth in Christ, I do not lie, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great heaviness and continual pain in my heart. For I myself was wishing to be accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites; to whom belong the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the Law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen." (Rom 9:1-5).

"And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev 12:5).

The Bible, which is the written record of the Revelation of God, teaches you that "the woman" of Revelation 12 refers to Israel, and to Israel only:

"And he dreamed still another dream, and told it to his brothers. And he said, Behold, I have dreamed another dream. And behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars bowed down to me." (Gen 37:9)

The twelve stars on her head represent the twelve tribes of Israel:

"And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." (Gen 15:3-5)

It's the the theology not of Christianity, but of paganized, gnosticized Christendom that teaches that "the woman" refers to "the church", when in fact "the church" is called "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

"The Sun" is the giver of light to the world, and the Word of God is the giver of Light to the world. The moon is called "the faithful witness of the sun" by God, because it reflects the light of the sun (the light of the Word of God) to the world. Who wrote the Bible you and I learn from, horizoneast, the Jews, or the church? Every time you read your Bible, you're learning from a Jew about God, and every time your Pastor/Bishop "expounds" the scriptures to you, he's only trying to explain to you what them Jews are still teaching us about God and the worship of God, as best as they themselves can understand it.

The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel. The harlot of Revelation 17 is every spiritually adulterous daughter of Babylon - including any spiritually adulterous part of Christendom which calls itself "the Church". It is the spiritually adulterous part of Christendom which dreamed up out of their fleshly imaginations the theology which you believe and which teaches you that "the woman" of Revelation 12 is "the Lord's Church".

Lekh

[Guest shiloh357]

The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel. The harlot of Revelation 17 is every spiritually adulterous daughter of Babylon - including any spiritually adulterous part of Christendom which calls itself "the Church". It is the spiritually adulterous part of Christendom which dreamed up out of their fleshly imaginations the theology which you believe and which teaches you that "the woman" of Revelation 12 is "the Lord's Church".

[Smalcald]

Or we could just keep it simple, the women is Mary, a real women who bore a real Savior.

"And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev 12:5).

Pretty direct.