Israel is Israel?

[nebula]

The woman is Israel, the chosen nation, brought into being by the birth of Isaac and elected by God forever

Of course you misunderstand once again. The

[nebula]

Or we could just keep it simple, the women is Mary, a real women who bore a real Savior.

"And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev 12:5).

Pretty direct.

And how does that fit with this?

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Smalcald]

Yeah Nebula; that does not fit as nicely that is for sure.

Horizen yes there is too much symbolism throughout all of those versus to simply leave it at Mary.

[freeman455]

There are many individuals who do not believe in God or Jesus Christ and there have been many in the past who are now dead. Does that mean that they have lost out on salvation? Absolutely not! God is a God of justice and true judgment and has not and will not deprive anyone from having the opportunity of being in His Kingdom. There are young children, older adults, people who have been killed in many accidents and disasters who have not ever had the remote chance of even hearing about Jesus Christ, much less have a chance to be able to confess that He is the Christ.

If one even remotely says that those individuals will not have a Chance to be in Gods Kingdom do not know their Bible.

this is really strange stuff, bro.

So it is appointed unto man once to die...then he gets a chance to change his mind?

Like I said, your not reading what I said. . I did not say a man gets a second chance, read what I said. If you are "saved" you don't have another chance. You are condemning to hell those to whom have not had a chance.

leodrex

[nebula]

And how does that fit with this?

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Very nicely thank you. Why can

[Guest shiloh357]

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Is the Child anyone other than Jesus?

Was Jesus born from "the Church"?

Good questions:

All of the imagery is that of Israel. Israel is the woman (Isa 54:1-6; Jer 3:20; Eze 16:8-14; Hos 2:19-20). In John's day, the concept of "The Church" as a separate entity from Israel did not exist and would not have entered the minds of either him or his readers.

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." It was through the woman, "Israel" that the Messiah was born. (Isa 9:6-7; 26:17; Mic 5:2). You are correct. "The church" did not give birth to anyone.

"And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne." Obviously refers to the ascension of Christ.

[nebula]

Because, as I said -

But the biblical truth remains

[lekh l'kha]

Great dodge ball you play.

You should be a politician.

I was thinking the same thing, Nebula. But all politicians are taught to tow the party line regardless of the truth, and they will never answer directly anything that shows their claims to be false. They will either ignore the question completely, or divert the conversation to something else, only coming back to making the same refuted statements, time after time, like a broken record stuck on the same track (for those of us who are old enough to understand what that means )

The church was born around 33 years after the woman spoken of in Revelation brought her seed (Christ) into the world, and yet according to some, the church gave birth to the One who gave birth to the church, 33 years before the birth of the church Maybe it has something to do with reincarnation.

Lekh

[Guest yod]

tow the party line regardless of the truth, and they will never answer directly anything that shows their claims to be false. They will either ignore the question completely, or divert the conversation to something else, only coming back to making the same refuted statements, time after time,

yep. that's what we've been getting for a loooooooooong time with our friend from the east

[nikki1]

Blessings, shiloh 357

It is not a matter of being suspicious. It goes back to being intellectually honest.

There is also no way we can in full honesty and truthfulness claim that NO true Christians were involved in these things.

Based upon what you said, I think my response is quite honest.

That may be true for your friend, but that is not necessarily true for the Jewish community as a whole. I am Jewish and am very familiar with why Jewish people reject Christianity. To become a Christian will garner you the label of Meshummed (traitor) and in the Orthodox community, familes will conduct "funerals" for those among their number who come to faith in Jesus/Yeshua. You are essentially "dead" to them. That is far to emotional of a response over something like theology. Messianic Jews are often characterized as worse than Nazis in anti-Missionary literature. It is considered a reproach to those who died perserving Judaism in the face of Church persecution.

Persecution is not only inclusive in Judaism. Gentiles are persecuted and Muslim Arabs are brutally tortured and murdered by family members for conversion to Christianity. Most of my family rejected me and didn