Temple of God

[nebula]

Wow, lekh - that is very interesting!

[lekh l'kha]

Jesus said to watch for the abomination that causes desolation and was a referrence to Daniel 9:24. It said that this abomination would happen in the holy place. This holy place is it man made or not? Does god live in temples that man made today?

What's interesting about the Greek words for temple in the New Testament is that there are four Greek words referring to the temple in Jerusalem: hieron, naos, oikos ("house", as in the house of God), and hagios topos (as in holy/sacred location).

Hieron

Until the verses describing (a) the tearing of the veil; and (b) Judas throwing the 30 pices of silver back into the temple, the word hieron is used only in reference to the temple building in Jerusalem and its outer court, with one exception (which is perhaps an important exception, which I will come to in a minute).

Naos

Likewise, until the verses describing (a) the tearing of the veil; and (b) Judas throwing the 30 pieces of silver back into the temple, the word naos is only used in reference to:

1. The holy place/most holy place of the Jerusalem temple.

2. Christ's reference to His body as the temple.

After the tearing of the veil, the word naos is only used in reference to our individual bodies or the church as the temple of God, with two exceptions (if they be exceptions):

2Thes.2: 4 and Rev.11: 1-2.

Oikos ("house")

Only until the tearing of the veil, the word oikos ("house") is also used once in reference to the holy place/most holy place of the Jerusalem temple (in a verse which parallels the same verse in another gospel, which uses the word noas)

And until the tearing of the veil (but not after that), the word oikos is also used in the phrase "house of God", and it is used in reference to the holy place/most holy place. But after the tearing of the veil, the word oikos and phrase "house of God is always referring to the church, and never to the temple in Jerusalem.

After the tearing of the veil, only the word hieron is used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem, with three exceptions (if they are exceptions):

1. 2Thes2: 4

2 Rev.11: 1-2.

BUT HERE'S THE THING:

hagios topos (holy/sacred location)

After the tearing of the veil, when the unbelieving Jews accused Paul of defiling "this holy place", the Greek DOES NOT use the words naos or oikos to translate those words (because after the tearing of the veil, the Greek does not use those words to describe the Jerusalem temple).

But NEITHER does the Greek use the word hieron to translate those words (because the word hieron referred only to the temple building in Jerusalem with its outer courts, and not the holy place).

So what words does the Greek use to describe the Jews' reference to the Jerusalem temple as the "holy place" AFTER the tearing of the veil?

THE SAME WORDS used in the only exception in the gospels up until the tearing of the veil where neither hieron, nor naos, nor oikos are used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem: The words hagios topos:

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (Greek: hagios topos) (whoever reads, let him understand)." (Mat 24:15).

That's the same words used in Acts in reference to the Jerusalem temple AFTER the tearing of the veil when the Jews accused Paul of defiling "the holy place" in Jerusalem.

So the GREEK words used for "temple" in the New Testament DO suggest that a "temple" will be built in Jerusalem - but that it will not be regarded by God as holy - rather as an abomination - and it will be the sign that the Lord Jesus Christ is about to return.

I don't know what to make of the fact that 2Thes.2: 4 and Rev.11: 1-2 are the only exceptions to the rule that from the tearing of the veil onwards, the word naos is used only reference to our individual bodies and the church as the temple of God.

Hopefully someone can suggest a reason to me?

Lekh

Lekh, this is very intresting. Its my opinion that 2thess2:4 and rev 11:12 are prophectic and have not yet been fulfilled, and should be taken literaly. So technicaly it would be before the tearing of the veil. In Dan 9:25 is when it was given in terms of a later temple, prince to come[man of lawlessness], and the event of the abomination that cause desolation. What say you?

I say I dunno. I believe there is a strong possibility that those who reject the sacrifice of Christ are going to build another temple, and IF THAT happens, then that temple will fulfill Mat.24: 15. But Dan: 27 I think was fulfilled by Messiah, who was cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks (therefore in the 70th week), and I don't see why Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy pens by speaking about the coming of the Messiah and closes by speaking abouot the coming of the antichrist.

But I believe the history of Israel repeats itself, and that what took place 40 years after the tearing of the veil (70 A.D) will happen again (the gathering of the armies against Jerusalem), and I believe that the last half of the week is what is written about in Dan.7: 25 and Rev.13: 5. I don't believe in a 7-year tribulation, I believe in a three and a half year tribulation.

I believe that the continuation of animal sacrifices in the temple after the tearing of the veil eventually resulted in the desolation of the temple 40 years later (in 70 A.D), and "to the end of the war" (of the Romans against Israel), the desolations determined, actually occurred. But I believe it's all going to repeat itself - except that Jesus won't be crucified again and the veil won't be rent a second time, of course - but the temple will be built again and the sacrifices will again constitute an abomination that causes desolation.

I don't mind if you don't agree, because I don't like to get into arguments about prophecy, because who says I'm right? So it's just my opinion about Dan.9: 27, for the reasons above.

But I don't know about 2Thes.2: 4 and Rev.11: 1-2. Don't understand why those verses use the Greek word "naos".

Lekh

[e lansing]

[qoute]I say I dunno. I believe there is a strong possibility that those who reject the sacrifice of Christ are going to build another temple, and IF THAT happens, then that temple will fulfill Mat.24: 15. But Dan: 27 I think was fulfilled by Messiah, who was cut off AFTER the first 69 weeks (therefore in the 70th week), and I don't see why Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy pens by speaking about the coming of the Messiah and closes by speaking abouot the coming of the antichrist.

[lekh l'kha]

IN daniel 9:25 it says at 62 weeks and 7 weeks. These weeks have been fulfilled but there is one week left. Didn't this clock start at the given decree by Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian conquer in 539 B.C Ezra 1:1-11 and in Nehemiah. And end at the death of Christ based upon dan 9:26 "Messiah will be cut off". leaving us 7 years short of the 490? Since There is suppose to be a third temple, the event of abomination is still yet in the future and could be the reason 2thee 2:4 and rev 11:12 were used defferently, given that this new temple has not yet been built.

from what i understand the last 3 and a half of this 7 year period is call Jacobs trouble in dan 12:1, matt 24:12,22, rev 6-19. Not trying to change your mind, if i have an oppertunity to learn somthing i'm all ears

I thought that the 2nd temple was destroyed because of there continued rebellion to God by worshiping other Gods. Ezekiel 8:17 speaks of there continue rebellion. deut 28:64 and 2 chro 7:19-21 was the punishment for there crimes. 37 yrs later in 70 AD all this was fullfilled.

As iron sharpens iron so does one man to another we all are just learnimg, if we want to!

thanks

e

Thanks, 'e lansing. But okay, let me try and explain what I mean like this, but first, try not to think in terms of "one prophecy, one fulfillment" with regards to either Dan.9: 26-27 or the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13).

Daniel 9: 24-25 opens by speaking about the coming of the Messiah - so the passage is about the coming of the Messiah - but the Messiah doesn't have only one coming - He has two.

Verse 26 shows that AFTER the first 7 weeks + 62 weeks, the Messiah would be cut off. The word used for "after" is a very definite Hebrew word - "achar", meaning following after (following after the first 7 weeks + 62 weeks), which means the Messiah would be cut off in the final week.

Don't lose me yet - just keep concentrating - look at part of this as happening TWICE:

The prophecy opens by speaking about the coming of the Messiah but closes by speaking about the coming of the antichrist?

No - verse 26 says that the prince who shall come shall destroy the sanctuary.

Verse 27 says that the Messiah will cause the sacrifice to cease in the middle of the final week - because He is cut off AFTER the first 7 weeks + 69 weeks.

I know you're losing me now - but don't - keep concentrating:

Look at part of this as happening TWICE:

The veil is rent because the Lamb of God has been sacrificed - but most of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who were eternally elected by God, reject the sacrifice and continue/RESUME sacrificing animals as sin-offerings - and so God allows "the prince (prince #1, the Roman prince) who shall come" to destroy the temple by fire - on the exact same day of the Biblical calendar that the first temple was destroyed by fire by the Babylonian armies, and the surviving Jews and their leaders are taken captive by the prince of Roman 666 years (to the year) after the Jewish klng, Jehoiachin, was taken captive by the king of Babylon, along with the prophet Daniel and other Jewish leaders. (The temple was only destroyed a few years later).

And so Jesus gives the same sign to BOTH (a) the generation who saw this happen in 70 A.D; and (b) the generation who will see this happen:

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)

Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. Let him on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house; nor let him in the field turn back to take his clothes. And woe to those who are with child, and to those who give suck in those days! But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day;

for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Mat 24:15-22).

When "the (Roman) prince who would come" destroyed the temple in 70 A.D, there was great tribulation. When "the prince who shall come" destroys the next temple, there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning...to that time." Right?

The Messiah was cut off in the middle of the week, and the prophecy does open and close by speaking about the coming of the Messiah - but Messiah came is is coming again.

And the history of Israel repeats itself, so prophecy gets fulfilled more than once - except that when the armies of "the prince who shall come" destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D, it did not cause the Jews to look on Him whom they pierced (Zech.12: 9-10), neither did the Messiah come and set His feet on the Mount of Olives to deliver them from that particular "time of Jacob's trouble".

But next time, He will - because when the Jews see that "the prince who shall come" has come and destroyed the temple (again), they will realize, finally, that Messiah has come, and is waiting for them to repent so that He can come back.

So it's all about the fact that the Messiah HAS come and been cut off and brought and end to sacrifice, and the fact that the Jews will not have the sacrifice of the Lamb of God and will continue/resume their own sacrifices for sins in the "sacred location" (hagios topos).

Yes, the clock stopped - but the two circles of the first century and the last century overlap when animal sacrifices are continued/resumed in a temple in the "sacred location" in Jerusalem - and in that overlap, you can insert Dan.9: 26-27 and Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 (the Olivet Discourse).

I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain now.

But I could be wrong.

Lekh

[Rick-Parker]

The Rapture and the last 7 years are only related in the sense that the former has to precede the latter. Technically, the 7 years are called Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27). They begin after the Rapture when God restores His covenant with Israel. This will take place at the end of Ezekiel's battle (Ezek. 39:22). The last half of the 70th week is called the Great Tribulation. It's 3.5 years long. The Bible doesn't say if there's an interval between the Rapture and Daniel's 70th week or not.

Parker, how do you know for sure that the rapture will happen before the last 7yrs? Scripture need to interpret scripture. All theories need to back up with scripture. For Example: Daniel 9:24-27 It talks of an amount of time given to the Jewish people. 70 weeks. Now for the sake of time i will just give you this out line as short as possible. How many days are in a week? right, 7 days in a week. 7 days times 70 weeks comes out to 490. 490 day do not add up to anything so it must mean 490 years. It says in Dan 9:25 this time of 490 years will start when the decree is given to rebuild the temple. This happen in 444bc. Confirmed in Nehemiah 2:8. In verse 25 of Dan 9 it gives another set of numbers. 69 weeks plus one week. 69 times 7 is 434. one week times 7 is 49 add them together we get 483 yrs. We are 7 years short of 70 weeks. A time period was given for the Jewish nation of 490 years and it started 444bc when the decree was given to rebuild the temple. so what stop the clock? In Daniel 9:26 is says until the time of massiah will be cut off. When Jesus died on the cross it was 483 years later to the day. Just like it was prophecied. We are in a time gap, why? In Dan 9:26 it referrs to a time of wars, this is speaking of Israel being in a time of wars. The next thing to happen and what most teacher are waiting for is this new temple. Why? Because when this new temple starts to be built it will be the beginning of the last seven years. How do know that this temple has not been built, the 490 years has not been complete yet. Because it stop at the death of Jesus. There is more but for the sake of time i will end this here.

The only thing that even looks like a rapture is at Matthew 24:31 It looks like the raptures happens after this new temple is built and the antichrist commits the abomination of desolation.

Will you provide your position with scripture so we can see a time line?

The best response to this is another question. Where is the Church mentioned in Matt. 24? Answer, It

[e lansing]

[Rick-Parker]

This is my last reply on this matter. Call it conjecture or not, but I have provided plenty of scriptures to back up what I am saying.

(Matt. 16:2-3) "He replied, 'When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.'"

(Matt. 24:15-16) "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel

[e lansing]

This is my last reply on this matter. Call it conjecture or not, but I have provided plenty of scriptures to back up what I am saying.

(Matt. 16:2-3) "He replied, 'When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.'"

(Matt. 24:15-16) "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel

[e lansing]

The Rapture and the last 7 years are only related in the sense that the former has to precede the latter. Technically, the 7 years are called Daniel

[e lansing]

The Rapture and the last 7 years are only related in the sense that the former has to precede the latter. Technically, the 7 years are called Daniel