Godhead

[Guest]

.... which makes us God also, but not equal to God the Father or Christ ....

Dear Joe

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:6

Are You A Mormon

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 44:24

Or Perhaps A Hindu

As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 47:4

Do You Believe The Word Of God

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 55:5

I Mean Dear Joe, Do You Truly Truly Believe

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36

Or Have You Another Way To Teach

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 14:12

Not Believing His Word Over

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 Peter 1:20-21

Some Philosophy

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:8

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:16-18

And Be Blessed Beloved

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Joe

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

[HAZARD]

"I have a question, provide us the scripture that shows that God created Jesus."

.

Search the Bible for a thousand years and one will never be found. The Word willingly became flesh (John 1:14), He was never created. Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

what do you know, there is something we can agree on!

which of course is why Joe never came back

It pleases me that we can agree on something occasionally. I believe in Jesus Christ and in Him who sent Him. I also try to obey His many commands, one which is that we love one another despite personal dissagreements or miss-understandings on doctrins.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." (John 13:34),

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13:35),

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12), "These things I command you, that ye love one another." (John 15:17),

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." (Rom. 13:8),

"But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another." (1 Thess. 4:9),

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:" (1 Pet. 1:22).

"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:" (1 Peter 3:8),

"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:" (1 John 3:11),

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23),

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 John 4:7),

"Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another." (1 John 4:11),

Haz.

[Guest Joe in Arkansas]

Dear Blindseeker,

You seem to be on the right track of what you are saying. The "Godhead" is a title given to God the Father much like is the term "throne of God". The "Godhead" term represents is power and authority, not that there is a "trinity" of gods that is commonly taught. In a nut shell, God the Father is the one and only God from which all things have come to exist. Jesus Christ is the first born of Creation. That's right, Jesus was created by God the Father. The Father gave Christ the "fullness of the Godhead", meaning all of God's power and authority subject only to God the Father. Since God is invisible, He created a perfect image of Himself in Jesus. And through Jesus, all creation was made. It is not wrong to say that Jesus is God but He is not God the Father. God is a title and not a name. Scripture calls His saints "sons of God", which makes us God also, but not equal to God the Father or Christ. But someday, we will be as Christ, fully made in the image of God the Father. We are God's offspring in the process of being born. There is no trinity of gods, all being co-equal. Christ is not equal with God the Father but it is not incorrect to call Him (Christ) God. Christ is fully made in the image of God the Father. When we see Christ, we see the Father (all that the Father is). Christ only does what He sees the Father do. Notice that Paul says many times throughout his letters "to God the Father and Jesus Christ" or words to that effect. He never addresses the "Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit is God the Father's spirit that He gave to Christ and in turn, Christ gives to those whom He chooses, namely His Church. If you have any specific questions on this subject, I would be happy to try to answer them.

May God bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

I have a question, provide us the scripture that shows that God created Jesus.

Dear RunningGator,

I'm sorry I've been busy and didn't see that you asked me a question. Here is the scripture:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I have checked the translation of this verse, especially the word for "beginning" and that is the Greek word "arche" which means:

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

a) of angels and demons

Also, this scripture is revealing as well:

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

God is the father of Christ, meaning that He came out of the Father just as we come out of Christ.

John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live].

These verses plainly say that the "Father" is God from which all things come, which includes Christ. That is why Christ said this:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

If you read these verses without the preconceived belief (I know it is hard to do) in the trinity doctrine, it is clear that God the Father is God of all, which includes Christ. Christ plainly tells us that the Father is greater than Him and that He came out of the Father. I understand these verses to mean that God the Father created Christ before the Creation and then, through Christ, created everything else in Creation. Don't get me wrong, Christ was given the fullness of the Father so much so that when we see Christ or hear Christ, we are likewise seeing and hearing the Father. Christ is the perfect visible image of the Father but He is not the Father. Christ was created for the purpose of showing us the Father since the Father is invisible.

I hope this helps explain why I believe what I believe.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

[HAZARD]

Hi Joe.

Jesus was not created by the Father, He was begotten of the Father. Jesus was the Word, who became flesh.

"And the Word, [an eternal being], was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).

When was Jesus begotten? This day; "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7).

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."(Acts 13:33).

Haz.

[Guest Joe in Arkansas]

Dear FresnoJoe,

I do believe the Word of God. I reject the teachings of the traditions of man. Scripture and the Holy Spirit are the only sources of my beliefs. I believe in one God and His Son. Jesus Christ. I don't believe that Jesus Christ is equal to the Father but I do believe He is God, just not God the Father nor equal to Him. As I stated in my post this afternoon, scripture says that all things (including Jesus) come from the Father. Concerning the Holy Spirit; God the Father gave Christ of His Spirit and Christ gives it to whom He will. Man also has a spirit. Do you consider it a separate person from yourself. I don't and neither does God consider His Spirit a separate person from Himself and has expressed as much in scripture. Here is what Paul believes:

1 Cor 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

2Cor 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

I believe that God the Father is also the Father of Christ and is greater than Christ. Christ is not equal to the Father in the same sense that we are not equal to our earthly fathers. That is the order that God has established, not me. Christ is the Father's son, made perfectly in His image. When Christ says that He and His Father are one, He is meaning that are same in character and that the Father completely controls Christ's will. So when you see the Son, you see the Father. But that does not mean they are equal nor does it mean they are both existing from eternity past. Christ had a beginning on the day He came out from the Father.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Also please note that Paul never addressed the Holy Spirit in the above scriptures. That is because the Holy Spirit is not a separate person but is merely God the Father's Spirit that Christ has shared with His saints.

I don't expect to convince you of anything I believe. The Lord is in control of us both and we are at His mercy on what we believe. Only the Lord heals our blindness.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

[Guest Joe in Arkansas]

If you read these verses without the preconceived belief (I know it is hard to do) in the trinity doctrine, it is clear that God the Father is God of all, which includes Christ. Christ plainly tells us that the Father is greater than Him and that He came out of the Father. I understand these verses to mean that God the Father created Christ before the Creation and then, through Christ, created everything else in Creation. Don't get me wrong, Christ was given the fullness of the Father so much so that when we see Christ or hear Christ, we are likewise seeing and hearing the Father. Christ is the perfect visible image of the Father but He is not the Father. Christ was created for the purpose of showing us the Father since the Father is invisible.

I hope this helps explain why I believe what I believe.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

thank you for your answer.

I am still a bit confused, are you saying that Jesus is not God, but a created being?

Dear RunningGator,

God created Christ but Christ is just as much God as God the Father is. God is a title. Jesus is known has the Son of God and the Church is also know as Sons of God. Someday, we will be like Christ, fully and completely, which means we will be just like the Father. That has been God the Father's plan from the beginning - to produce many sons & daughters made in his image. Does that make us gods? The scripture says it does. But we are not preexisting nor are we as great as the Father, we are His offspring. Does this sound incredible to you? It's God's plan for us as revealed in scripture. He stated as much from the beginning:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Who was God talking to? Christ of course. God used Christ to make all of creation. Some people say that Adam and Eve were already made in God's image but failed to let up to it. This is completely untrue. I assure you that God did not fail to make His creation perfect for His intended purpose. Making man into God's image is a long drawn out process that takes till the end of the ages to complete. Adam & Eve were made just as carnal as any man, only without any sin - yet. But for us to be made in God's image, we have to know good and evil. It was God's plan for Adam & Eve to sin from the beginning. God even made Satan to push things along. That's enough straying off the subject for now.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

[Guest Joe in Arkansas]

Hi Joe.

Jesus was not created by the Father, He was begotten of the Father. Jesus was the Word, who became flesh.

"And the Word, [an eternal being], was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).

When was Jesus begotten? This day; "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7).

"God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."(Acts 13:33).

Haz.

Dear Hazard,

I appreciate your reply. Hopefully I have addressed your points in my other recent posts. If you don't agree that is okay. Only God can change hearts and minds.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe

[BlindSeeker]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Who was God talking to? Christ of course. God used Christ to make all of creation. Some people say that Adam and Eve were already made in God's image but failed to let up to it. This is completely untrue. I assure you that God did not fail to make His creation perfect for His intended purpose. Making man into God's image is a long drawn out process that takes till the end of the ages to complete. Adam & Eve were made just as carnal as any man, only without any sin - yet. But for us to be made in God's image, we have to know good and evil. It was God's plan for Adam & Eve to sin from the beginning. God even made Satan to push things along. That's enough straying off the subject for now.

May the Lord bless you,

Joe in Arkansas

As previously posted for Hazard elsewhere, I will repost it here for you Joe.

It is undeniably evident by the words recorded even before Christ in Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziek "And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him . . ." (please do click link for your own verification), that the consideration of a compound nature of the deity was foreign to the ancient Jews, rather the concept of God

[HAZARD]

"Gen 1:26. And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth."

.

I cant seem to find that verse written so in any Bible? What I have found is this;

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26).

[BlindSeeker]

"Gen 1:26. And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth."

.

I cant seem to find that verse written so in any Bible? What I have found is this;

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26).

That is true.

I am simply submitting to Joe the the above Targum which was from the original Hebrew translated into Arabic for the captives of Babylon who had lost there native language while in captivity. One may say this was one of the first, if not the very first translation of the Pentateuch into another language, and it being by the learned for the Israelites themselves to convey the understanding of what was written and meant.

I leave with with Joe for his prayerful consideration, as I did for you at one time. As with every man everywhere, he is free to ignore it or consider it.

Regardless, it still stands as a historical record.