Sleep in Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

If that's how you wish to reason it away, it

[Arthur Durnan]

"Soul-sleep" is a major doctrine of false cults such as Ellen Gould Harmon White's Seventh-day Adventism and Charles Taze Russell's "Jehovah's False Witnesses." Christadelphians teach it to. The Apostle Paul sets all men straight on this one when he states (as was announced earlier): "Absent from the body, present with the Lord!" Our Lord is neither sleeping nor annihiliated somewhere! "He Who keeps Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." AMEN!

[BlindSeeker]

The problem here is how you and the reviewer you cite make the same inaccurate claims about what Piper actually said.

I knew you could pinpoint the problem. I'll give it some consideration.

[Guest shiloh357]

I hate it when i agree with them on something lol.

Uh, yeah... that should tell you something about what you believe regarding this.

To be present with the Lord after death and before resurrection is to be asleep in Jesus.Remember we must be raised from this sleep .This is resurrection.

It is our bodies that are raised to life, not our spirits. Sleep is just a metaphor for death. It is not the literal state of the spirit.

[Guest shiloh357]

Nah shilo..it really doesn't tell me much at all.

When one starts agreeing with nonChristian cults about the Bible, there is something wrong.

You possibly have some incorrect ideas also but i do agree with you sometimes

Yes, but that isn't the same.

The nature of our spirit is mentioned in ecclesiastes 3.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;H7307 so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast:for all is vanity.

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spiritH7307 of man that goeth upward, and the spiritH7307 of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

H7307

רוּח

rûach

roo'-akh

From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

(Ecc 12:7)

Ecclesiastes 3 isn't the final word on the issue. Furthermore, the question in Ecclesiastes 3:21 is not expressing doubt about the destination of man's soul. He is asking with regard to how many comprehend man's soul going back to God.

[Massorite]

Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise." While Paradise is not heaven, it is clear that the thief was not unconscious or in soul-sleep.

I have a friend whose father saw heaven on his deathbed in the hospital. He was 1/2 hour from death and he said that he could see heaven in the East. Within just a few minutes, of death, he said, "I am in two places at once." He claimed to be in heaven. Those were his last words.

Don Piper, who wrote "90 Minutes in Heaven" tells of his experience in heaven after being killed by large truck on a bridge.

There are credible witnesses either who have passed on or who have passed on and have come back to tell about it.

Shiloh,

The original scriptures used no punctuation.So no commas.Is it possible Jesus was telling the thief he would be in heaven and using "today" as an emphasis.Like i can say to you today,Jesus will return.I believe the paradise meantioned here is heaven by the way.The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom.This kingdom is heaven+earth? (new).

I do not believe any earthly man/woman has seen heaven yet.Living or dead.

I am afraid that I don't pay much attention to punctuation or commas because in the original there weren't any except for maybe a period so I read scripture without them. Maybe that is why I have so many who disagree with me. In the Hebrew unless I am mistaken it was just symbols/words one right after the other and it was the same with the Greek. Adding scripture numbers and chapters was done in the interest of helping the bible student better understand scripture but even doing this changed how the bible student views the scripture even if it is minuet and I feel the same way about punctuation. I can spend so much time worrying about punctuation and context that I get confused. I mean maybe I am wrong about this but I think that all that stuff has confounded a better understanding of Scripture. I can tell you this though. In my studies I have found Islamic scholars do the same thing as Christian scholars do. If they disagree with an interpretation of a verse in the Quran they start talking about context, and spelling and interpreting an Arabic word this way or that. When in reality the Quran if it is read from a literal prospective telsl us exactly what it was meant to tell us even if it does contradict its self and it does that.

Since I have never heard that Lazarus was a homeowner before I re-read the event and found nothing in the bible that told me that Lazarus was a homeowner. It could have been Martha or Mary who owned the house that they lived in and it is too much of a coincidence that both Lazarus's were sick and both Lazarus's died and both Lazarus's were sleeping. It should be obvious that the Lazarus who was laid "cast down" at the gate of the temple did not stay there 24 sevens so somebody had to take him to and pick him up from the temple gate every day and only kin folk would do that. The bible really says nothing at all about how Martha and Mary made a living or even if they worked at all. What if the brother of Mary and Martha begged at the gate to help feed his two sisters?

Could you tell me where you got the info that tells us that Lazarus was a homeowner? Besides if Lazarus went to heaven why would Jesus call Lazarus back from the abode of God. It seems to me that if I were Lazarus and I died and went to heaven and Jesus called me back from hangin with God I would not be a very happy camper.

This author Mr Don Piper if he is telling us that he heard and saw all of these things whether they are explainable or not while he was dead then that would be a contradiction to scripture when the bible tells us that the dead know nothing. I mean we already know how imagenitive the mind of men can be, look at Dantes Fire. If you know nothing while you are dead then how could you remember what you didn't know? Other questions I have are these. If Lazarus was in heaven and not in Paradise/Bosom of Abraham then why does the bible speak of Lazarus rising from the grave? How come the bible doesn't say that Lazarus descended back to the body. When I look up the word sleep in John 11:11 my study tools tell me that the word means just what it says. That Lazarus was asleep just like we do every night when we go to sleep. Only we have dreams but those who are dead/sleeping don't have dreams because they know nothing. Maybe I am wrong but I think I am going to hang with my conclusions because if I am wrong its not going to send me to hell.

[Guest shiloh357]

Since I have never heard that Lazarus was a homeowner before I re-read the event and found nothing in the bible that told me that Lazarus was a homeowner. It could have been Martha or Mary who owned the house that they lived in and it is too much of a coincidence that both Lazarus's were sick and both Lazarus's died and both Lazarus's were sleeping. It should be obvious that the Lazarus who was laid "cast down" at the gate of the temple did not stay there 24 sevens so somebody had to take him to and pick him up from the temple gate every day and only kin folk would do that. The bible really says nothing at all about how Martha and Mary made a living or even if they worked at all. What if the brother of Mary and Martha begged at the gate to help feed his two sisters?

Could you tell me where you got the info that tells us that Lazarus was a homeowner?

Women were not allowed to be propertyowners. Property ownerrship was through the man, not the woman. What is more likely and is assumed by the Scriptures is that Mary and Martha lived with their brother. The Bible would not stop and tell you that Lazarus owned the house. It is assumed knowledge.

The idea that the Lazarus of the Parable and the brother of Mary and Martha are the same person is simply not feasable and is without biblical support. Your assertion is problematic also in terms of chronology. Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus before Jesus resurrects the brother of Mary and Martha.

Besides if Lazarus went to heaven why would Jesus call Lazarus back from the abode of God.

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

(Joh 11:4)

This author Mr Don Piper if he is telling us that he heard and saw all of these things whether they are explainable or not while he was dead then that would be a contradiction to scripture when the bible tells us that the dead know nothing.

No, it would simply contradict how you understand what the Bible says.

I mean we already know how imagenitive the mind of men can be, look at Dantes Fire.

And yet Piper doesn't get all "imaginative" about it. The fact that he could not describe everything he saw and heard shows that he is not making things up. He doesn't try to fill in the gaps. You do not come away from the book knowing much more about heaven than what you did before you read the book. That means that he is not trying to be sensationalist. It is in what Piper doesn't say that I find his credibility strengthened.

If Lazarus was in heaven and not in Paradise/Bosom of Abraham then why does the bible speak of Lazarus rising from the grave? How come the bible doesn't say that Lazarus descended back to the body.

The Bible says what it says. Please don't ask me to speculate on why the Bible doesn't say one thing or another.

When I look up the word sleep in John 11:11 my study tools tell me that the word means just what it says. That Lazarus was asleep just like we do every night when we go to sleep.

Word meaning is one thing. Word usage is another. I am referring to the connotation of a word, not its dictionary definition. We often use words apart from they actually mean. "Love" has a dictionary definition, but it is often used various ways on the street. "Love" is used one way when I say "I love icecream" and it is used different way when I say "I love my children." In a given conversation we automatically adjust our thinking to fit the context and usage of the word. Unfortunately, this skill is for some unknown reason, thrown out the window when reading the Bible.

In referring to death, sleep is just a metaphor for what the body is doing.

Maybe I am wrong but I think I am going to hang with my conclusions because if I am wrong its not going to send me to hell.

So you would hang on to what you believe even if it is wrong??? Why would you prefer to be wrong? That is not even rational.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us the spirit returns to God.This means the same as asleep in Jesus for believers.What does it mean to you?

Actually it means the opposite. It doesn't matter what it means to me. It means that when the body returns to dust the spirit returns to God. It does not mean spirit sleeps in the grave. You need to start believing the Bible instead of reading your cultish doctrine into it.

[Arthur Durnan]

So "sleeping" or being "annihilated" is far better than being ALIVE with Jesus Christ....after all, the Bible calls it "GAIN" when we leave this mortal coil! Pray tell, what's "GAIN' about either "sleeping in death" or being "annihilated"? And if we go to be with Christ when we die, is Christ Himself "sleeping" too? Don't become so wrapped up in essential cultic doctrine that you miss the DISTINCT JOY of being ALIVE - more then than ever before - with our Precious Lord & Savior!

[Massorite]

Since I have never heard that Lazarus was a homeowner before I re-read the event and found nothing in the bible that told me that Lazarus was a homeowner. It could have been Martha or Mary who owned the house that they lived in and it is too much of a coincidence that both Lazarus's were sick and both Lazarus's died and both Lazarus's were sleeping. It should be obvious that the Lazarus who was laid "cast down" at the gate of the temple did not stay there 24 sevens so somebody had to take him to and pick him up from the temple gate every day and only kin folk would do that. The bible really says nothing at all about how Martha and Mary made a living or even if they worked at all. What if the brother of Mary and Martha begged at the gate to help feed his two sisters?

Could you tell me where you got the info that tells us that Lazarus was a homeowner?

Women were not allowed to be propertyowners. Property ownerrship was through the man, not the woman. What is more likely and is assumed by the Scriptures is that Mary and Martha lived with their brother. The Bible would not stop and tell you that Lazarus owned the house. It is assumed knowledge.

The idea that the Lazarus of the Parable and the brother of Mary and Martha are the same person is simply not feasable and is without biblical support. Your assertion is problematic also in terms of chronology. Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus before Jesus resurrects the brother of Mary and Martha.

Besides if Lazarus went to heaven why would Jesus call Lazarus back from the abode of God.

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

(Joh 11:4)

This author Mr Don Piper if he is telling us that he heard and saw all of these things whether they are explainable or not while he was dead then that would be a contradiction to scripture when the bible tells us that the dead know nothing.

No, it would simply contradict how you understand what the Bible says.

I mean we already know how imagenitive the mind of men can be, look at Dantes Fire.

And yet Piper doesn't get all "imaginative" about it. The fact that he could not describe everything he saw and heard shows that he is not making things up. He doesn't try to fill in the gaps. You do not come away from the book knowing much more about heaven than what you did before you read the book. That means that he is not trying to be sensationalist. It is in what Piper doesn't say that I find his credibility strengthened.

If Lazarus was in heaven and not in Paradise/Bosom of Abraham then why does the bible speak of Lazarus rising from the grave? How come the bible doesn't say that Lazarus descended back to the body.

The Bible says what it says. Please don't ask me to speculate on why the Bible doesn't say one thing or another.

When I look up the word sleep in John 11:11 my study tools tell me that the word means just what it says. That Lazarus was asleep just like we do every night when we go to sleep.

Word meaning is one thing. Word usage is another. I am referring to the connotation of a word, not its dictionary definition. We often use words apart from they actually mean. "Love" has a dictionary definition, but it is often used various ways on the street. "Love" is used one way when I say "I love icecream" and it is used different way when I say "I love my children." In a given conversation we automatically adjust our thinking to fit the context and usage of the word. Unfortunately, this skill is for some unknown reason, thrown out the window when reading the Bible.

In referring to death, sleep is just a metaphor for what the body is doing.

Maybe I am wrong but I think I am going to hang with my conclusions because if I am wrong its not going to send me to hell.

So you would hang on to what you believe even if it is wrong??? Why would you prefer to be wrong? That is not even rational.

Good point about the connotation of a word.

So what about Lydia? The bible says nothing at all about her being married and in Acts 16:15 it says that not only her but also "her household was Baptized" and then in the same very the bible says that she asked Paul I believe it was to stay at "her house". The bible doesn't say that "her husbands household was" it says "her household was" So not only did she own her own house she also owned and operated her own business.