Beyond the Evolution Vs. Creation Debate

[joemiller]

to Lurker

As I said, peppered moths = natural selection (adaptation) ... this is NOT a creationist issue.

I understand your reference to "other hominid fossils", but in the context of the theory of evolution, the excitementand importance of Piltdown Man was attributed to its placement in the evolution-chain. And, as such, the discussion of PM and your "other hominid fossils" is not equivalent.

For the reference to the Piltdown Man forgery, I refer the readers to:

"The Full Extent"

The Piltdown Forgery

J. S. Weiner 1955

http://www.clarku.edu/~piltdown/map_prim_s...fullextent.html

And, finally, there are no creation scientists who are "simply crying on the sidelines about how maligned they've been." One's work speaks for itself. You should try reading some of their papers, and books. You might be surprised.

JM

[MorningGlory]

Don't be ridiculous, the Piltdown Man forgery is over a hundred years old. We've discovered many many many hominid fossils since then which has established a sizable fossil history for human beings. As such the Piltdown Man "argument" against evolution is meaningless.

How could homanid fossils establish a history for our species, Lurker? Homanids were not human and you know it.

[MorningGlory]

How could homanid fossils establish a history for our species, Lurker? Homanids were not human and you know it.

I'm not exactly sure where you're trying to go with this, but if you'd like to learn more about the fossil history for human evolution you may do so here:

http://www.becominghuman.org/node/human-lineage-through-time

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/fa...rta/encarta.htm

If you would like to take a more generalized overview of how we've gathered evidence supporting human evolution I would suggest this excellent site,

http://www.exploratorium.com/evidence/index.html

Lurker

I've read and listened to all of this stuff before......nowhere have I ever seen 'evidence' that we are descended from apes. Evolutionists would have us believe that primates evolved over millions of years; basically animals that didn't change much socially during all that time. Then, suddenly, a few thousand years ago they became Homo Sapiens Sapiens, moving from trees and caves to building the Great Pyramids, developing written language, living in advanced societies and conquering the earth and possessing souls. Sorry, the timeline doesn't make sense at all. What was the catalyst that caused so much change in such a short period of time? I would venture that, even taking my own views into account, there's no way evolution can account for who we are.

[MorningGlory]

Then, suddenly, a few thousand years ago they became Homo Sapiens Sapiens, moving from trees and caves to building the Great Pyramids, developing written language, living in advanced societies and conquering the earth and possessing souls. Sorry, the timeline doesn't make sense at all. What was the catalyst that caused so much change in such a short period of time? I would venture that, even taking my own views into account, there's no way evolution can account for who we are.

Food production, particularly agriculture but also animal domestication which occurred independently in different places throughout history and whose success and/or failure was largely a product of geography and how many domesticatable animals happened to live in the area. I would highly recommend Jard Diamond's Guns, Germs, & Steel for an in depth look at the rise of agriculture and it's effects on human societies. However, if you are one of the unfortunate souls who doesn't own this book you can read an excellent article about it here,

Why Europeans Conquered the World

"Wherever farming has taken hold around the world, the farmers had at least one domesticated animal to provide protein, at least one storable source of carbohydrates, and a legume (peas, lentils, beans, etc.). Legumes are also storable. They dry hard and don't rot readily. And they are higher in protein than grains, so they can be used as a protein supplement if animal protein becomes scarce.

With enough sustainable food like this, people could stop roaming, and form villages. . .

. . .Here's what happened: People settled down. They had a more reliable source of food throughout the year (because it was storable), so they had more kids. A hunter-gatherer woman only gives birth every five years or so because hunter-gatherers move around a lot and until a child can walk on his own at a pretty good pace, the mother cannot afford to have another child.

But once people settle down into a village with a steady supply of food, they start having children at a rate close to one per year.

So the population of farmers grew faster than hunter-gatherers, allowing the farmers to outnumber and defeat hunter-gatherers in war.

Also, because settled farmers are settled, they can have more possessions, like tools and weapons. Hunter-gatherers had to carry their stuff with them, so they were limited in how many possessions they could accumulate. This has a long-term, limiting influence on the development of new technologies because often new inventions are built on previous inventions.

As farming techniques improved, farmers had more food excess to store, so some people no longer had to do the work of producing food. Specialists could then develop. Tool makers. Weapons makers. And because they were specialized and spent more time on their craft, they invented more. Technology improved faster.

So farmers had better weapons and greater numbers and could defeat hunter-gatherers even more effectively.

Another very important factor is: The more people you have together, the more ideas they exchange. The process of innovation began to accelerate when people settled down into towns and cities.

Hunter-gatherers hardly changed at all. They were relatively isolated, relatively small groups of people who didn't have the time or incentive to invent new technologies, and they couldn't carry much with them anyway, so their technologies remained relatively unchanged for thousands of year

This is a non-answer to the question I asked.

[MorningGlory]

This is a non-answer to the question I asked.

Perhaps you should consider re-phrasing your question then. Are you asking about the catalyst that led to the rise of advanced civilizations within the last ten thousand years or are you asking about the driving factor behind hominids evolving more and more advanced cognitive abilities?

Lurker

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. How do you explain the slow, ponderous pace of change in homanids over millions of years compared to the meteoric rise of modern humans in only a few thousand years? It simply isn't logical that lower primates advanced to using sticks for tools in all that time and then, suddenly, our species went from cave dwellers to the computer age in relatively no time at all. You mention agriculture vs hunter gatherer activity.....what would even prompt people to start growing things? Why do only humans worship God or gods? Why did only humans develop language, spoken and written? Why did only humans begin to use mathematics? Why do only humans have souls?

[Guest]

Lurker, do you ever think or speak about anything BUT evolution? Just curious.

.... Here I choose to spend the majority of my time discussing science and evolution and don't feel the need to pretend that what any of us discuss on this forum is representative of how we all spend our time...

Well Dear One, At Least Here You Have Demonstrated An Uncommon Courtesy

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Romans 1:20-22

In Placing A Conjunction Between Science And Quasi-Sensical Evolution

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20-21

Perhaps There Is Still Hope

And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:3-4

While Life Remains

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... For instance, I don't assume that FresnoJoe actually goes through everyday life throwing out quasi-sensical sentence fragments accompanied by three or more scripture verses to passers by, that's just what he chooses to do on this forum ....

Scripture

They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law. Psalms 119:150

Scripture

Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

>>>>>()<<<<<

Choices

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

Choices

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

Choices

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

Choices

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

>>>>()<<<<

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

And Be Blessed Beloved

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Love, Joe

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:19

[MorningGlory]

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. How do you explain the slow, ponderous pace of change in homanids over millions of years compared to the meteoric rise of modern humans in only a few thousand years? It simply isn't logical that lower primates advanced to using sticks for tools in all that time and then, suddenly, our species went from cave dwellers to the computer age in relatively no time at all.

You seem to be under the impression that all survival advantages are mundane, on the contrary many beneficial traits lead to population explosions as do environmental changes. Unless you can be more specific I really don't see what there is to explain.

You mention agriculture vs hunter gatherer activity.....what would even prompt people to start growing things?

The first agricultural was likely completely unintentional, again I'll refer back to Gus, Germs, & Steel:

"It may come as a surprise to learn that plant seeds can resist digestions by your gut and nonetheless germinate out of your feces. But any adventurous readers who are not too squeamish can make the test and prove it for themselves. The seeds of many wild plant species actually must pass through an animal's gut before they can germinate. [Therefore] Human latrines. . .may have been a testing ground of the first unconscious crop breeders."

Jared Diamond,

Guns, Germs, and Steel

(p. 116-117)

This model of agriculture explains things like domesticated almonds, as wild almonds sometimes contain cyanide to discourage birds from eating their seeds. However, sometimes a mutation can result in a wild almond tree with only good (non-death inducing) almonds. Birds typically flock to these trees and they rarely procreate seeing as all their seeds are gobbled up. People very likely noticed this and started picking almonds from these trees instead of risking it with wild almonds. As almonds were gathered some would likely be discarded and start sprouting, as these sprouts began to collect around areas of human habitation more and more of the mutated almond trees would have become more and more associated with human settlements. It would only be a matter of time before someone connected the dots. Granted, almonds are a bad example because it takes a really long time for almond trees to grow, but you can see how this model would work with virtually any domesticated plant from pumpkins to strawberries to corn.

Why do only humans worship God or gods?

Actually there have been some Neaderthal's discovered buried with artifacts which would suggest a belief in some sort of afterlife.

Why did only humans develop language, spoken and written?

Actually if you got to the expoloratorium link I provided earlier (How do we know what we know) and look at the section on "Observing Behavior" you would know that in fact many of the differences between human beings and other great apes is a matter of degree, not novelty. Language is certainly one of the behaviors we share as most apes have their own language. Written language is a relatively modern human invention which I think results from our amazing cognitive abilities couples with our tendency to create tools (another shared behavior).

Why did only humans begin to use mathematics?

We have really big brains.

Why do only humans have souls?

Grace of God.

Lurker

Better answers, Lurker, and I agree with most of them. (Not going to try to replicate the seed test though.) But the fact remains....we are a totally separate species from any other and always have been. AND we haven't been on this earth that long yet our species dominates the earth and has made extraordinary advances in relatively little time. Plus we possess souls. Evolution cannot account for modern man.