Scientific Predictions of the Christian Positions on Origins

[MorningGlory]

What's telling is your loud and proud declaration of Christ and what He has done for you. Your website is just riddled it with!

That's simply not what that is designed to do, sorry. It's more of an archive for things I've grown tired of re-writing. Again, why are you so focused on declarations as if this is synonymous with faith? I find wonder in the beauty of Creation, isn't understanding the universe, then, a way of declaring what God has done for us? And if we are to understand what we can of the universe, shouldn't we be able to strive for learning as much as we can about it without worrying whether or not it will allign with scripture? After all, if both have the same author shouldn't we simply expect the predictions of one to match up with the predictions of the other? If not, why?

Lurker

This is a very sly way of injecting doubt into a conversation. You know full well that the TOE doesn't line up with the Bible. If you truly want to know 'why', let me tell you. Your primer is one gigantic LIE...that's why. You worship another god than the God of Abraham. Just admit it and move on. You're not fooling anyone here anyway. But I still pray for you, Lurker.

[MorningGlory]

Well Denis Lamoureux's approach is that the Bible teaches an ancient science, not that it is wrong or that "God lied" - in the same way that poetry is not "wrong." He simply says that it was the best science the people at that time had, and may have been influenced by other cultures. He still believes God inspired the Bible, he just disagrees with you about what that means.

You insist that he can't be a Christian, despite the fact that he quite clearly is. He is trained to the PhD level in both biology and theology - with his dissertation being on the early chapters of Genesis. So not only is he a Christian, he knows far more about both the science and theology involved than anyone else on here.

And your aim, as an atheist, is to further Christian evolutionary thinking and a greater understanding of our world, right? Let me respond to that with the immortal words of a Christian that isn't fooled by either the atheist agenda or the master you serve.

"Horse feathers."

Oh yeah...I forgot; those are actually MY words.

[MorningGlory]

I'm going to leave my previous post up there just so you can look through it and note that I didn't mention evolution once, all I'm asking about is why we need to be afraid about learning about the universe. Why do you think saying we shouldn't be afraid to test our beliefs against reality is a "very sly way of injecting doubt"? If God is the author of both creation and revelation shouldn't the stories we find in both agree?

(Note: I'm on vacation for spring break and on the road so my posts may be a little more spread out than usual.)

Lurker

A Christian's beliefs ARE reality. No one is 'afraid' of learning about the universe. That's a ridiculous statement. Have you read Genesis and Revelation yourself?

[nebula]

Lurker, I think you are incorrecti n your assessment of the average Christian.

It's not about fear; it's about caring.

The average Christian doesn't care a whole lot about scientific inquiry, research, and discoveries - not the way you or I would. The average Christian doesn't look at something and seek to know how it came to be. And it isn't a religious thing, it's a personality thing.

Think about it - how many of your students show evidence that they really care about what you are teaching.

(Gracioius, I teach A&P labs to college students wanting to get into the medical field, and I can tell by the quiz and practical - test - grades that they don't even care about this subject!)

Do you really expect your average Christian to be interested in scientific pursuits?

Really.

I butt heads with my bro all the time over this. I'm rattling off about how scientifically inaccurate a movie was, and he's like, "Who cares? It's entertaining! Enjoy the movie and shut-up."

[MorningGlory]

Well, certainly not every Christian's beliefs "ARE" reality since Christians differ on some of their beliefs. That being said, if we shouldn't be afraid to learn about the universe why are so many here terrified of what this learning tells us?

Any true Christian believes the Genesis account. Straight to the heart of the matter, that's what this is about. No one here is 'terrified' of learning about the universe. Where do you GET such nonsense.

Let's put biology (ToE) to the side for a moment and simply look at geology - when we look at not only our own planet but also the others in our solar system we see a very long history of events stretching back much farther than 6,000 years.

Of course we do. However, the Bible doesn't tell us that nothing existed before the Creation.

Does this not tell us that we can't take parts of Genesis at their face value just like observations about the motion of the sun and moon tells us that we can't take parts of Joshua at their face value?

Nope. And you didn't answer my question; have you read both Genesis and Revelation yourself?

[MorningGlory]

Any true Christian believes the Genesis account. Straight to the heart of the matter, that's what this is about. No one here is 'terrified' of learning about the universe. Where do you GET such nonsense.

I get it from people's continued denial of reality when it conflicts with how they think God should have done things.

Of course we do. However, the Bible doesn't tell us that nothing existed before the Creation.

OK. . .so God created the earth before creation? What about clear geological evidence of life existing far longer than 6,000 years ago? Did God create life before Creation too?

Nope. And you didn't answer my question; have you read both Genesis and Revelation yourself?

Yes, why?

Lurker

What reality are people denying? Yours? You really should read Genesis again; it does NOT tell us that there was nothing before God brought about Creation. I believe the earth, in a primeval state, was here 4.5 billion years ago. He just didn't get around to bringing life forth for a long time. God created life AS WE KNOW IT NOW when He created Adama and Eve.

Now, since you've read both Genesis and Revelation .... how does one contradict the other?

[MorningGlory]

What reality are people denying? Yours? You really should read Genesis again; it does NOT tell us that there was nothing before God brought about Creation. I believe the earth, in a primeval state, was here 4.5 billion years ago. He just didn't get around to bringing life forth for a long time.

The reality you are currently denying is that life has existed on this planet for far longer than six thousand years. Here, let's look at an example from the Lake Suigetsu varves - here we have a clear record of algal blooms stretching back over 50,000 years. That is simply a reality.

Now, since you've read both Genesis and Revelation .... how does one contradict the other?

Nothing springs to mind. . .is there a point you are going to come to here?

Lurker

How about let's NOT look at yet another example of ancient life. I was referring to life as we know it today, not something that lived eons ago. Everyone understands that concept. There were dinosaurs too...they went extinct. Yeah, I get it.

Maybe this quote from one of your previous posts will jog your memory....Genesis = Creation, in case you've forgotten.

"If God is the author of both creation and revelation shouldn't the stories we find in both agree? "

[spiritman]

I listened to some of this guys presentation, and found it to be similar to most thiestic Evolutionists, in the fact that there is a lot of assumptions based on what they believe happened. For example He said " when all the creatures including the dionsaurs came out of the ark God told them to multiply" So he goes on to make the point that if the dinosaurs came out of the ark, then why are they extinct?. Perhaps the question here should be " When did they go extinct". For this we would have to look for any Biblical discription of a dinosaur after the Noah's flood, which took place after Genesis chapter 6.

In the book of Job; 40:15 Job describes a land creature that fits the discription of a dinosaur.

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares. Job 40:15-24 (KJV)

Again in Job chapter 41 a creature is discribed that is similar to a dinosaur:

leviathan Job 41:1 (KJV)

Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?

6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?

7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?

8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?

Job 41:1-10 (KJV)

it is also possible that the legends of dragons is a reference to dinosuars.

Indeed being instructed by someone who doesn't know the Bible all the way through is like no instruction at all.

[MorningGlory]

it is also possible that the legends of dragons is a reference to dinosuars.

Indeed being instructed by someone who doesn't know the Bible all the way through is like no instruction at all.

I have always questioned the possible link between dinosaurs and the fabled 'dragons'. These stories appear in many cultures and are very similar. Who's to say that ALL dinosaurs went extinct 65,000,000 years ago? Only God knows for sure.

[spiritman]

MG, technically birds are dinosaurs, so we see them all the time.

Spiritman, as a theistic evolutionist myself, I thought that some of the guys' ideas were a little odd myself. However, I thought that his main ideas were spot on despite his dull and rather slow lecture.

Hi D-9,

Thank you for your response, Just curious can you summerize how you interpet the six days in Genesis?