Evolutionists: Why is it so important to you?

[MorningGlory]

The teacher that stressed that the kids had to make up their own minds is an exemplary teacher. Considering the liberal climate in Canada, why is the TOE not taught in schools?

Everyone is very concerned about not offending anyone. I don't know what the education policy is regarding evolution. I have only heard that teachers worry about offending parents.

Well, in that area, Canada is much like the U.S. then. We seem to be getting so P.C. down here that a kid can't be allowed to fail, we can never criticize anyone, and we don't want to profile young muslim males because it may offend their sensibilities. It makes me bonkers.

[spiritman]

Where on earth do you live? Evolution is taught in all public schools in the U.S. and has been since I was in high school over 20 years ago. Are you perhaps not American?

Where am I? Canada.

However, I found a map at the following link:

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/04/0...ught-in-the-us/

It shows in which states "the teaching of evolution is unsatisfactory, useless or absent" within the US. There are about 16 states named. I may be off by one. You may want to check for yourself. The map would indicate that your presumption that evolution is taught in every state is incorrect. The greater point is that in many states, according to the map, evolution is poorly taught. I should speak to some teachers where I live. Maybe I am mistaken, but I don't thinks so.

I just asked my kids again, to be certain. Neither took evolution in science. The youngest told me he was taught the Creation story in world history class, in highschool. The teacher then explained she had to mention evolution as well, but stressed that it was up to the students to make up their own minds about which they wanted to believe. My oldest said she was also taught the Creation story in history. Someone raised the question of evolution and the teacher shut down the discussion.

Hi Marsh,

I live in one of the states mentioned on your map; Ohio to be the exact, I began school in 1968 and I can say with all certainity that Evolution was required, and creation was a no no. You might wish to check your sources, sometimes sources can be slanted one way or another to prove the presenting sides point, for example, check to see, who presented this map, is it an Evolutionary group?

[spiritman]

There are many people with a sincere belief in God who accept evolution. Evolution, then, can't be a way of marginalizing God.

Your sincerely believing 'Christians' that spout that garbage are heretics and are denying God.

Not very conciliatory and I don't think very accurate either. Clearly, if they believe in prayer, God, Jesus, and the power of salvation through Christ, then it can hardly be said they are denying God.

One of the other members had a link to a talk given by Dennis Venema. If you Google Human Genomics: Vestiges of Eden it should pop-up at the top of the page. I just watched it and thought it the most concise and convincing explanation of evolution I have ever encountered. The other point is Venem is a self-described Evangelical Christian. He is also a PhD in genetics. Interestingly, he was an evolution-denier even after acquiring his doctorate. That changed after he read a scientific paper comparing the human and chimp genomes. The paper persuaded him. Aside from now accepting evolution, his faith is strong.

So on one Hand you say you believe in God, but since He plainly says in His word, that man was made from the dust of the earth, and you say that man came from another creature, then you are in fact calling God a liar. How can you believe in someone yet not believe what they say?

[Guest]

.... Sure. As I've stated before, I'm not so much trying to make you change your minds as much as I am trying to change how you argue ....

Dear One

Truth

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:11

Comes From God

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31

Not From The Bible Bashing

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 1:10

Of Delusional Men

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:8

And Antics

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Romans 16:17-20

May The LORD Protect The Children

And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Mark 9:42

And May He Bless His Truth Tellers

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Isaiah 66:5

In The Holy Name Of Jesus

Amen Yeshua!

Amen!

[Rick-Parker]

The thing is though, no one wants to use your arguing tactics anyway. Your whole foundation, the way in which you deal with the holy scriptures, is so fundamentally different to us (and flawed) that none of your debating styles or arguments for evolution or anything you post is going to be of benefit to us in proving creationism.

And yet you are still here, still asking questions, still improving your understanding of the issues involved, still involved in the discussion. When I was arguing against evolution I started having doubts about how strong my position was, so I figured since I'd been debating against evolution for a long time I would do a little experiment and argue for evolution. After all, I reasoned, if my position (then Intelligent Design) was sound it should be able to stand up to criticism. It might be interesting for you to do the same, it is certainly one way to turn confirmation bias on its head. Just a few thoughts.

Lurker

Evolution is one of the strongest weapons that satan has to deceive. And you have bitten hook, line and sinker, my friend. "Christians" who change their minds about creation have very weak minds, no foundation for their "faith," deny Christ by denying scripture, and are lost. That is you.

[Rick-Parker]

OK, so I am hearing Christians saying why they believe evolutionists need to convince of us evolution.

But I have yet to hear an evolutionist explain why they are obsessed with convincing Creationists to become evolutionists.

Ah, now I follow.

I don't know about were you live but where I am many teachers are afraid to even mention evolution. They don't want to upset parents. What's education coming to if in the science classroom, out of fear, one can't teach a central part of biology? Shouldn't biology teachers feel free to teach the science? My kids weren't even tought evolution in highschool. Good thing they at least heard about it from me.

If the question is, why should we care about teaching a concept that represent events in the distant past, then I guess my response is why should anyone care if we do teach it? As I said in the beginning, where we come from does matter to people. Creationists don't want evolution taught. They have their own reasons, but those views prevent the science from being taught, at least in some places. If you care about something, doesn't matter what it is, then you want the freedom to teach it. Biologists say evolution is central to their science but it is not being taught adequately. It wouldn't be such an issue for me, I suppose, it the teaching of evolution wasn't encountering road blocks. I feel compelled, I guess, to help correct misunderstandings that I know exist.

The truth is that evolutionists don't want/allow creationism to be taught in schools. They don't want children to be able to make up their own minds. You must live on the moon.

[nebula]

Hello Nebula,

This is my first post. I agree with Hal P. I do accept that evolution is a fact, and I think that is one reason I like to promote it. Ever since I was in my teens I use to talk with my friends about human origins and God. Where we come from is a central question many of us share. I happen to believe Darwin was bang on. So why wouldn't I want everyone to know this? Those of faith are not the only ones who think the question and solution are important.

Thanks - but why is this particular issue important to you?

Hi, I thought I answered that. For the reason stated above I have always enjoyed the subject. Everytime I see a story on Neanderthals or anything related to human evolution I turn to it right away. Don't we all have a natural curiosity about our origins? If you believe you started with Adam and Eve then I suppose you think the chapter is closed. There is nothing more to learn. There is nothing exciting waiting around the next corner. All the questions on human origins are answered. However, if you see human origins as one long road of evolutinary developmend with numerous side branches, then you live in a very exciting time. New findings are always just around the corner. It's a jigsaw puzzle that has a lot of missing pieces, but those pieces are out there waiting to be discovered. It's exciting.

I guess when you are exhilerated by something you want to share that fascination with others. Make sense?

Well, firstly, the only Christians that don't care beyond "Adam and Eve" are the ones who don't care much about science anyway.

I'm into science, and I always like to check out the new findings and such.

The only difference is I look a little more skeptically about the interpretations of the findings.

But nonetheless, why is it exciting to you to be the product of an evolutionary branch?

OK, so I am hearing Christians saying why they believe evolutionists need to convince of us evolution.

But I have yet to hear an evolutionist explain why they are obsessed with convincing Creationists to become evolutionists.

Ah, now I follow.

I don't know about were you live but where I am many teachers are afraid to even mention evolution. They don't want to upset parents. What's education coming to if in the science classroom, out of fear, one can't teach a central part of biology? Shouldn't biology teachers feel free to teach the science? My kids weren't even tought evolution in highschool. Good thing they at least heard about it from me.

It's the opposite here.

If the question is, why should we care about teaching a concept that represent events in the distant past, then I guess my response is why should anyone care if we do teach it? As I said in the beginning, where we come from does matter to people. Creationists don't want evolution taught. They have their own reasons, but those views prevent the science from being taught, at least in some places. If you care about something, doesn't matter what it is, then you want the freedom to teach it. Biologists say evolution is central to their science but it is not being taught adequately. It wouldn't be such an issue for me, I suppose, it the teaching of evolution wasn't encountering road blocks. I feel compelled, I guess, to help correct misunderstandings that I know exist.

OK, propaganda to your point of view aside -

Why do you care about it? Why does it make you excited?

It's not like you can say that evolution or the teaching of evolution saved your life the way I can say that Jesus saved my life (really, I truly would be dead if not for Him).

So what drives you beyond curiosity or the thrill of discovery?

[MorningGlory]

Had my direct ape ancestor been eaten 25 mya by a lion I would not be here today and quite likely you wouldn't either.

If you had a direct ape ancestor you would be a chimpanzee, my friend. And, as such, you wouldn't be posting here.

[nebula]

Why do you care about it? Why does it make you excited?

I am repeating myself, but I want to know my biological past. I would also like to know who my human ancestors were. I find it very interesting.

So, it's about finding identity? Is that what you are saying?

Are you saying that if you knew your ancestors extended back millions of years you would have no curiosity about them? Have you no curiosity even about your human ancestry?

I do, I just don't believe our lives began in meaninglessness. I believe we are a product of love, not chance. [And by "love" I don't mean the physical kind.]

It's not like you can say that evolution or the teaching of evolution saved your life the way I can say that Jesus saved my life (really, I truly would be dead if not for Him).

I am glad you are here, Nebula, but I can truly say I would never have existed were it not for my ancestors. Had my direct ape ancestor been eaten 25 mya by a lion I would not be here today and quite likely you wouldn't either. If a more recent direct male ancestor had been killed in battle with the Romans, I again wouldn't be here, but possibly you would.

First, thanks for the affirmation!

Second - I don't see how saying an ancestor survived long enough to reproduce is a claim that evolution saved your life. Nor do I see how that compares to direct intervention.

And I still fail to see why ancestors surviving makes you want Creationists to believe in evolution?

I had my Y-chromosome tested a few months back and my Haplogroup is R1b. What's yours? I would also like to test my mtDNA.

That's cool you got your DNA tested.

As for me, it would be rather difficult for me to have my Y-chromosome tested.

I have thought about a genetic test though, until I saw the price tag. I'm curious, but not that curious.

So what drives you beyond curiosity or the thrill of discovery?

The very same thing that drives you I suspect. I think you may be trying to impart the idea that nothing can be deeper than God. If so, I would agree, but I would argue that my interests run possibly as deep. Your belief, after all, is only a belief, as are my beliefs. Why should what is the driver of your curiosity be any different than what drives mine? Am I on the right track?

Not really. My belief is more than a belief.

How do I explain that? Umm, well, I can only think of the words from a song:

Where should I begin to tell my thoughts?

What can I say that will do?

Where are the words when I need them most

To show my gratitude?

Through the times I was burdened

But I didn't fall

Through the times I was certain

There was no one at all

His love was reaching

An invisible hand pulling me through

His love was reaching

Touching my life in more ways than I ever knew

So I'm having a hard time making sense out of why and how you find meaning, purpose, joy, comfort, strength, security, hope, peace, mercy, etc. through evolution.

~~~~~~

BTW, for clarification, I'm not a traditional 6-day (24-hour time periods) Creationist. I do believe in the God of the Bible and that He "created the heavens and the earth," but I don't stick to Gen. 1 as a modern scientific account. But when it comes to evolution, they have yet to prove any particular set of fossil bones found belong to a Homo sapien ancestor.

But my drive is not curiosity, nor do I speak of Creation for the sake of knowledge - or whatever it is "deep" means to you.

I speak of Creation because I want you to know your Creator. And I want you to know your Creator because He wants you to know Him. It's about love.

[MorningGlory]

Had my direct ape ancestor been eaten 25 mya by a lion I would not be here today and quite likely you wouldn't either.

If you had a direct ape ancestor you would be a chimpanzee, my friend. And, as such, you wouldn't be posting here.

It is a misconception that humans are descended from chimps. They are cousins. It's the evidence that finally persuaded Dennis Venema. Being a geneticist he understood what the evidence was saying.

I realize that evolutionists believe that. I was speaking in broad terms.